Burning the Bridge ???

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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby El Asian » Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:37 am

well some questions regarding Evans, Omega, and even London were answered during the Q&A with Super Dragon, though I do wonder what's Brandon Gatson, guy was getting a nice push then wasn't booked afterward by this year and I believe he was wrestling in IWL or something and I'm curious what happened between PWG and Lufisto as well
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:48 pm

I always assumed Gatson simply failed to live up to "main event guy" expectations. He did some really cool shit, they pushed him quick, then they realized he wasn't so great (vs. Hero, vs. Joey). Overness and moveset-wise, he regressed real fast.

Oddly enough, Cage's current "GMSI" shtick was born in Gatson's last match. Cage then turned bad into good.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby IronSabbath » Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:32 pm

I don't think Kenny Omega has burned any bridges. Just chose to wrestle full time in Japan as opposed to the US. As far as I've seen, there's no ill will towards him.

That said, I'd love it if he came back to the states even for awhile. I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

and is there a bridge Low Ki HASN'T burned? The guy is a great worker imo but he just seems to have issues with putting guys over.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:40 pm

IronSabbath wrote:I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

Yeah, they sure knew how to book SSB, didn't they? Chikara almost ruined that team.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby eastbay510 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:23 pm

IronSabbath wrote:I don't think Kenny Omega has burned any bridges. Just chose to wrestle full time in Japan as opposed to the US. As far as I've seen, there's no ill will towards him.

That said, I'd love it if he came back to the states even for awhile. I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

and is there a bridge Low Ki HASN'T burned? The guy is a great worker imo but he just seems to have issues with putting guys over.

You say Ki is a great worker but what is the last great match he's had? With his style being toned down and the backstage bullshit I dont ever see him being brought back, and quite frankly Id be mad if he ever is, expecially when we have yet to see Gargano, The Bravados, and ACH in a PWG ring, and all those guys have been producing great matches reciently.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby eastbay510 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:24 pm

Meltman wrote:
IronSabbath wrote:I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

Yeah, they sure knew how to book SSB, didn't they? Chikara almost ruined that team.

What happened between SSB and Chikara?
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:43 pm

eastbay510 wrote:
Meltman wrote:
IronSabbath wrote:I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

Yeah, they sure knew how to book SSB, didn't they? Chikara almost ruined that team.

What happened between SSB and Chikara?

The whole thing was an abomination. Uno was in Chikara for a couple of years doing absolutely nothing. They bring in Stupefied, and then SSB goes on a dozen-match losing streak. Suddenly they start winning when Stupefied puts on the worst mask ever and pointlessly changes his name.

Little after that, they win the Chikara Tag Titles...and then drop the titles maybe 3 weeks later.

From there, they did jack shit. Stupefied won some flying-man tournament, but obviously they were too dumb to capitalize on that, and nothing happened.

Really, just bad treatment of a great team.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby IronSabbath » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:51 pm

True, Chikara did book SSB rather badly. Quackenbush seems to be an iffy booker a lot of the time and rarely uses guys that weren't trained by himself anyways.. or at least they don't get good pushes in the company.

Anyways, not like it matters, SSB is now in Dragon Gate USA and PWG so they're making quite the name for themselves in the indies without Chikara.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Super Dragon Mark » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:54 pm

eastbay510 wrote:
IronSabbath wrote:I don't think Kenny Omega has burned any bridges. Just chose to wrestle full time in Japan as opposed to the US. As far as I've seen, there's no ill will towards him.

That said, I'd love it if he came back to the states even for awhile. I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

and is there a bridge Low Ki HASN'T burned? The guy is a great worker imo but he just seems to have issues with putting guys over.

You say Ki is a great worker but what is the last great match he's had? With his style being toned down and the backstage bullshit I dont ever see him being brought back, and quite frankly Id be mad if he ever is, expecially when we have yet to see Gargano, The Bravados, and ACH in a PWG ring, and all those guys have been producing great matches reciently.


ACH, sure; but Gargano and Bravados, no. ACH's style and stuff is great and suits PWG, and I've never found Gargano or the Bravados' styles exciting or intriguing. It's not even like I'm all about spots and "MOVEZ~!!", but I just don't care, and nothing any of them do makes me care.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby BOLA4ever » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:53 pm

Super Dragon Mark wrote:
eastbay510 wrote:
IronSabbath wrote:I don't think Kenny Omega has burned any bridges. Just chose to wrestle full time in Japan as opposed to the US. As far as I've seen, there's no ill will towards him.

That said, I'd love it if he came back to the states even for awhile. I pitched the idea to some friends of Kenny Omega/Super Smash Bros team at King of Trios for Chikara.. because it just works.

and is there a bridge Low Ki HASN'T burned? The guy is a great worker imo but he just seems to have issues with putting guys over.

You say Ki is a great worker but what is the last great match he's had? With his style being toned down and the backstage bullshit I dont ever see him being brought back, and quite frankly Id be mad if he ever is, expecially when we have yet to see Gargano, The Bravados, and ACH in a PWG ring, and all those guys have been producing great matches reciently.


ACH, sure; but Gargano and Bravados, no. ACH's style and stuff is great and suits PWG, and I've never found Gargano or the Bravados' styles exciting or intriguing. It's not even like I'm all about spots and "MOVEZ~!!", but I just don't care, and nothing any of them do makes me care.

i agree i never really saw the appeal about Gargano but Bring in ACH!
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby NHfan » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:34 pm

I like Gargano, I think he's had some very good title defenses in DGUSA/EVOLVE, but it's time for him to drop the belts. I've never cared for the Bravados, I find them irritating. ACH is the man, MOTIVATION! lol.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:04 am

Super Dragon Mark wrote:ACH, sure; but Gargano and Bravados, no. ACH's style and stuff is great and suits PWG, and I've never found Gargano or the Bravados' styles exciting or intriguing. It's not even like I'm all about spots and "MOVEZ~!!", but I just don't care, and nothing any of them do makes me care.

Dude, thank you for saying this.

Gargano is a hype wrestler. People have been praising him because they look at how long he's had his title and assume he's good. He gets called an "all around" wrestler, which is supposed to mean he can adapt to any style. To me, it means he's not specifically good at any style. Most of his current reputation comes from him almost getting paralyzed or whatever 6 months ago. That's the kind of sympathy Gregory Iron gets. It doesn't mean he's good.

Gargano does not fit the PWG style, at least not on his own. The crowd feeds off wrestlers who either A) bring something completely new to the table (like Elgin, who is a monster, or Sami, who has an unorthodox look & style) or B) someone charismatic who can win them over without needing much flash (like Cole or Uno).

The best thing I've heard about Gargano is that "he's a great guy who loves wrestling". Really? What indy wrestlers don't love wrestling? Everyone destroys their body, so Gargano calling himself a martyr on Twitter after every mediocre match is fucking stupid and played out. Gabe Sapolsky is in dire need of new "trademark" guys he can brag about "raising", so that's why Gargano has been champion for like 2 years and Jon Davis keeps getting pushed despite being valueless.

As for the Bravados, that's another annoying request. You want PWG to fly in some annoying heels who play chicken? They just got rid of locals who do practically the same thing (Avalon, Rosas). Why on Earth would the Bravados be flown in? Every single 2011/2012 debut had a good reason behind it:

- There were no teams in PWG like SSB.
- Nobody who wrestled in Elgin's style, Sami's style.
- Future Shock had some ridiculous moves.
- Drake Younger takes bumps nobody would take.

How would the Bravados freshen things up? The Young Bucks have been playing hated heels, flawlessly at that, for years. RockNES Monsters just turned heel and are better wrestlers than the Bravados. It's just not a productive idea.

I was so happy when Super Dragon answered the Gargano question by saying "we have too many new guys right now". Even bringing him to tag with Chuck Taylor would be a waste of Chuck. Chuck can tag with anyone and it would be entertaining. He doesn't need his regular partner. Ever.

I do like ACH, though. He would likely bring flashbacks of when Omega was breaking out in PWG. I still think ACH needs a year or 2 before debuting here (he still botches a tiny bit), but persona-wise he'd fit like a glove. He's got character and a moveset. Bravados only have characters, and Gargano has neither.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Garden State Saint » Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:20 pm

I'm not a big Gargano fan but I do enjoy him but I don't see him in that light at all. The bottom line for me is he busts his butt just as much as any indy fan favorite, which to me in my humble opinion, means he fits the PWG mold.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:46 pm

Garden State Saint wrote:The bottom line for me is he busts his butt just as much as any indy fan favorite, which to me in my humble opinion, means he fits the PWG mold.

I'd love to see your list.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby NHfan » Fri Sep 14, 2012 8:20 pm

Meltman:
I totally agree with you on the Bravados. Not so much on Gargano but I'm not saying I'm pushing him to be a PWG guy anyways. I like him, but I actually can't see him in PWG. Another DGUSA guy I'm glad they are bringing in is Rich Swann who I do think is awesome and often overlooked in wrestling.
My question for you is, why do you seem to have hostility towards Gabe Sapolsky? I understand there are a lot of fans who kind of hop on his dick and believe everything he says, I'm not one of those believe me. There are some things he does that I do disagree with. But overall, I think he's did great things with ROH and have enjoyed the majority of DGUSA/EVOLVE shows that I have seen. For me personally Gabe has always been very nice to me (he actually personally handled a situation for me when I had lost a prepaid ticket and brought the receipt instead), and I feel like he tries to put on the best shows he can based a lot of the time on input from the fans. He pushes a lot of the younger guys and puts them in high profile matches that they might not get in other feds. Cole, O'reilly and TJ were all looking like they were going to get strong pushes before they left and now two are basically ROH jobbers. Generico is now getting the limelight he deserves there after ROH couldn't figure out how to use him. So I guess why I'm writing this is that maybe it seemed to me like you were being a little too critical on the guy? If you disagree that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinions.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Meltman » Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:47 am

NHfan wrote:My question for you is, why do you seem to have hostility towards Gabe Sapolsky? I understand there are a lot of fans who kind of hop on his dick and believe everything he says, I'm not one of those believe me. There are some things he does that I do disagree with. But overall, I think he's did great things with ROH and have enjoyed the majority of DGUSA/EVOLVE shows that I have seen.

Sure, he did some great things in ROH, but since 2010 it's been shit. (Actually, it's been shit since 2008, when ROH had, like, 6 different stables feuding with each other.) Since the DG partnership, he's adamant on featuring the same guys repeatedly, despite some of them constantly failing to break out. (Davis, Bobby Fish, The Scene). He holds online polls to determine matches. It's all about trying to achieve some Internet presence. Takes away from any professionalism.

As for the booking, well, I think most of it speaks for itself. He books an American dude, calls him a luchador (and not in a tongue-in-cheek way like how Generico is "Mexican"), then proceeds to book the same match 3 times in 2 months. It's completely lazy. It shouldn't be hard to put on constantly great shows with all these world-traveled DG guys, and yet a lot of the shows are forgettable. That's not the wrestlers' fault.

And that "style battle" tournament is the worst idea of all time. The whole EVOLVE concept was awful from the start. Eventually, he realized nobody cares about wins/losses. Originally, it was designed to showcase guys who might one day make it in DGUSA. Problem is, both feds use the same guys now, which lowers DGUSA's value.

NHfan wrote:For me personally Gabe has always been very nice to me (he actually personally handled a situation for me when I had lost a prepaid ticket and brought the receipt instead), and I feel like he tries to put on the best shows he can based a lot of the time on input from the fans.

If I met someone with an iffy reputation and they were cool to me, I would also defend them. So I probably can't convince you of how I feel.

NHfan wrote:He pushes a lot of the younger guys and puts them in high profile matches that they might not get in other feds. Cole, O'reilly and TJ were all looking like they were going to get strong pushes before they left and now two are basically ROH jobbers.

O'Reilly was pushed because Davey, at the time, was the center of the company. You bring up Cole & TJP, I counter that with Sabu & Tommy Dreamer. Obviously not a ploy to sell tickets with those guys. And I know he uses young talent (Gargano being the best example), but I can't commend that when I see how they're used. I already brought up that he wants to go back to the "Joe & Punk" days and be credited with building up new guys.

I can't even be happy about SSB being booked, because of how "who cares?" the matches have been so far. I'm glad they're making money, but if Gabe is going to watch PWG and book their guys, at least learn how to book them like PWG does. Even Tozawa was barely being used until the Chris Hero matches made his reputation. Gabe doesn't pull his own triggers, he waits and takes advantage of a built-up guy. And when he tries building his own, you end up with a 300-day Gargano title reign. Not exactly Samoa Joe, that guy.

NHfan wrote:Generico is now getting the limelight he deserves there after ROH couldn't figure out how to use him. So I guess why I'm writing this is that maybe it seemed to me like you were being a little too critical on the guy? If you disagree that's fine, we're all entitled to our own opinions.

Generico is not "in the limelight". He's there to put over Gabe's pet projects. Just like how Quack is booking Generico, to put over his students. In the long run, neither fed is likely to give him any championships, but they know he's invaluable when it comes to making their guys look great. You realize how great Generico really is when DGUSA books AR Fox vs. Samuray or Chikara books Ophidian vs. Tim Donst, and you observe and go, "Oh yeah, they're not that great on their own. It's all El Generico."
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Super Dragon Mark » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:05 pm

A discussion about igniting bridges ablaze and observing their incinerations flexures into one about Gabe Sapolsky - and to a lesser extent Johnny Gargano, as well as booking. Really great job on this one, SDMark, you piece of shit.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby NHfan » Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:48 pm

Meltman:
I'm too lazy to do quotes, so I'll try to just address a few things here.
First of all, I actually like Davis and Fish, although I agree on the later becoming somewhat stale over the last year and that's why I think he's kind of fizzled out of the picture. The Scene is garbage, I really do wish they'd kill that whole gimmick. But you can't expect to like everybody used on a show. I for one despise Brian Cage. I know that's probably blasphemy to say to the PWG crowd but I think he's a steroid monster douche, and that's my opinion. I could name others but I won't, the point is I don't hate PWG because they push him and I don't like it. I look past it.
I think you're being a little harsh on Samuray. For one, he's really good in the ring. For two, he's as much as a "luchador" as Rey Mysterio or Eddie Guerrero, both were not actually from Mexico but were from Mexican dissent (if Samuray is not I apologize I do not know too much about him). They wrestled much of their young careers in Mexico just as Samuray is doing now. He's used that experience and learned the lucha style. If an American goes to Japan and graduates from New Japan or Noah dojo, are they not considered to use a puro style? If there was a big problem with calling him as such, would Mexico continue to welcome him back on their shows? I also don't understand how you can have a problem with a series of matches. Some fans like it, and it appeals to those fans. If you dont like it, it's fine but I wouldnt call it "lazy booking" when there were enough fans who wanted to see a rematch and then a "rubber" match and enjoyed each of those matches.
Also you call the style battle the "worst idea of all time." I'm hoping there is a bit of hyperbole in this, pretttty sure there have been worse ideas. I thought the idea was ok, the execution however has not been the way I would've liked to see it go, but then again I'm not a booker, and I don't know the backstory of why things end up playing out the way they do. I actually really enjoyed the first 9 Evolve shows. I thought it was something different and I liked the whole sportsmanship and basing importance on records aspect (and yeah I kind of looked at it as DGUSA's "minor leagues"). I will agree that I don't care for the crossover being done now, I hate the idea of an EVOLVE title that they're pitching now, but I understand why they are doing those things, even if I personally disagree with them. They've had a few decent shows that I've seen since then but not as many as when they first started.
You say your counter to cole and TJ's pushes compare to bringing in Dreamer and Sabu. I don't think that compares at all. Dreamer was originally brought in to job for Moxley in one match and yes, to put some star power in the lineup (something virtually all indie companies including PWG have done). I didnt agree with bringing him back a few more times and I definetly think they used Sabu longer than they should have (although I dont entirely blame them as he did draw an audience like it or not). My counter to you would be Chucky T, Ricochet, Swann, Lee , Mox, Sami....guys that got pushes and have had very successful careers partially to thank for it.
I'd also like to point out that SSB was on some EVOLVE shows before making their way over to PWG. Tozawa was most certainly put in big matches fairly quickly in DGUSA. His 2nd match was a show-stealer with Mochizuki, two shows later he was in the semi-main event tag match at Bushido, and two more shows later he pinned Callihan, Aries, and then Hulk at United weekend. He should be champ, I was hoping he'd beat Gargano and am kind of upset he didnt because once again I agree that Gargano has held the belt for too long, but Tozawa was most certainly pushed at the beginning. But I don't see a problem anyways with having to work your way up the card. Introduce SSB by having them beat out some other teams first to show how great they are and then give them the high profile spots. I think it's fair. I know we've all been spoiled with the series of instant dream matches PWG books and that's what makes them the most fun to watch, but you can't expect to get that everywhere.
Lastly, Generico hasnt simply been jobbing in DGUSA/EVOLVE. He's beat Samuray (twice), one the first multiman match he was in, beat Sami, and now is probably going to have some great tag matches with Samuray. But he's not going to beat everyone because that's not going to make matches very interesting. They're keeping it interesting with him, which is more than ROH could do as they seemingly couldn't figure out what to do with him after Steen was gone. And I'm going to end this post with one question: Do you like any company's besides PWG? So far you've expressed on the boards what seems to be hatred for ROH, DGUSA/EVOLVE, and CHIKARA. If I'm right about this you must be a fan that is very difficult to please.
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Nasty Nate » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:01 am

So it's safe to say the Bridge has been Burned for this thread?
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Re: Burning the Bridge ???

Postby Garden State Saint » Sun Sep 16, 2012 6:41 am

Meltman wrote:
Garden State Saint wrote:The bottom line for me is he busts his butt just as much as any indy fan favorite, which to me in my humble opinion, means he fits the PWG mold.

I'd love to see your list.


List of what?
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