PWG Threemendous 7/16/06 Review

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Postby PsychoDriver » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:07 pm

PsychoDriver wrote:
He's a good wrestler.


Calling Jeff Jarrett a good wrestler is like calling gas prices cheap.


Oh, I just thought of another one. Calling Jeff Jarrett a good wrestler is like calling George Bush a good president.
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Postby WannaB » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:09 pm

The Masked Akeem wrote:But first, what is the benchmark of Jeff Jarrett's best match ever?


That's like asking if there is a G*d. Follow my route of athiesm and concede that Jarrett sucks so badly that he couldn't possibly have "a best" match. They all suck equally on a level that far underperforms even the worst matches by individuals such as Mark Henry, Scott Steiner, Nathan Jones, or Sexy Chino.

Acutally wait. Sexy Chino beating Adam Pearce at AWS was far more entertaining than anything Jarrett's ever done.
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Postby onlxn » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:23 pm

Andy, I agree with a lot of your points, but dog, Jarrett's fairly obviously a better wrestler than Joey -- he's a similar type of heel who's much better at the little things like punching, pacing and transitioning. You're not doing yourself any favors by throwing out crazy stuff like that "20 matches" thing; exaggerating wildly doesn't make your points any more convincing. (Citing a friend named "CrunkHustlin" doesn't help much either, but hey, we've all gotta bust out the silly names on the Internet at some point...)

From a fan perspective, I think Joey's reign has been just fine. A lot of his defenses have been nicely heated, and I don't think he's anywhere near Jarrett levels of overexposure (seeing as how JJ's been overpushed off and on for seven years). I also think that Joey's getting progressively better as a worker, and he's a much more interesting and effective heel than he was a year ago. On the other hand, Sunday's show was the first one where Joey's match was the one I was most anticipating. Somehow that doesn't seem quite right for a champ.

From a drawing perspective, it's a similar story -- I think Joey's been essentially a non-factor as champ. Obviously his reign hasn't hurt business, as attendance is still rising, if anything; on the other hand, the only Joey matches that seem like they could've drawn are maybe the 2/4 four-way.

I don't think Joey's reign has been a problem at all for PWG; business is fine, crowds are hot, and other than a few shows last summer, PWG's never been a company that's used its title to draw. However, Joey's cheating to win is getting a little repetitive, and now that Dragey aren't anchoring the shows with awesome, crowd-pleasing matches, I think it'd be good if Joey dropped the belt sooner rather than later. Should he have dropped it on Sunday? I dunno; I liked the finish, but I definitely see the arguments against it. But I think it'd be a mistake if Joey still had the belt three months from now. His reign hasn't hurt them, but at this point, they could get more out of the belt if they moved it elsewhere.
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Postby onlxn » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:26 pm

People, you're smarter than this. Jarrett is annoying, bland and overpushed, but he's a very effective professional wrestler; hell, other than Joe, he's easily the best worker in TNA's main event scene. Way better than Christian, for instance.

I don't really look forward to seeing him either, but if you're objective about what he does in the ring, he rates quite well -- a lot better than Joey, who still wanders and does some things poorly.
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Postby onlxn » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:28 pm

onlxn wrote:the only Joey matches that seem like they could've drawn are maybe the 2/4 four-way.

Should read "Sunday's cage match and maybe the 2/4 four-way". Friggin' lack of edit button...
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Postby ToddMartin » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:40 pm

First things first. I don't care about your opinion of my writing. It doesn't make a difference to me one way or another. The reason I'm being strong with you is because I've seen you act like a jerk countless times on this board, and I think bullies deserve to be given back what they give to others every once in a while. If you want to question this, tomorrow I'll do a search here and drag about 50 quotes of you acting like a total dickhead to others. Whereas the only time I'm going to be impolite is if someone is impolite to me first. I wanted to avoid getting into anything with you, which is why I just talked about Ryan even after you took some more shots at me. But when you followed that up with more attacks on me rather than my points, I felt you deserved a response. Although it is kind of sad you would ask your online friend to verify your point of view, and then use this as evidence of something. That's some real insecurity shining through.

The bottom line is there are plenty of things that can be discussed without just taking cheap shots at another person. But if you start every post with "he doesn't know what he's talking about" or "Do you even watch PWG?", well don't get all upset when someone bites back. And it weakens your argument anyway, because if your argument were that strong you wouldn't need to preface it with incessant conclusory statements that have nothing to do with individual points. You're just bolstering your ideas in your own head.

The girl who doesn't like you analogy is perfect. My favorite thread involving you was when you were being unnecessarily nasty to Pinky, Silverback told you to back off, and you ducked with your tail tucked between your legs and pretended you weren't being "mean" when you said you liked hearing her referred to as a turd. Dude, PWG doesn't care about you one way or another. Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are valid criticisms of the promotion out there? This is a great wrestling promotion. It isn't perfect. Discussing flaws is a good way to improve anything. So you can let PWG take the good and bad without stepping in as the masked online avenger. This board would be better without you rudely going after people left and right. Frankly, you've been a lot nicer to me than you have to others. But I'm not as easily bullied. So with all that said, let's get to your points, because there's some fun stuff here.

The Sabin pop for the Dusty finish *wasn't* all that great. There was a much bigger reaction when Claudio Castagnoli and Nigel McGuinness did the same thing at Final Battle, and that was for a lesser title within that promotion. And when you act like you're switching the title, yeah, you should expect that people won't be sitting on their hands.

Joey Ryan vs. Human Tornado had more heat than Dragon & Richards vs. Cape Fear? Joey Ryan vs. Chris Bosh had more heat than Dragon & Richards vs. Loc Luchas? Joey Ryan 4 way had more heat than Dragon & Richards vs. Hero & Castagnoli? There are tons of matches that I thought got pretty much the same heat as the Ryan matches you mentioned, but those three in particular aren't even close in my mind to the tag title defenses. I can't imagine you would be making that argument if this were a discussion of whether Super Dragon is overrated rather than whether the booking of the title is problematic.

You ask, "And how are his matches "put smack in the middle" when they're in the 2nd to last match when Joey's not main eventing? That's not in the middle of the card."

This question is sort of like asking "How is the sky blue when in fact everyone can see that it is red?" Ryan won the title 4th from the top. He defended in his first defense 4th from the top, and defended it on other occasions 4th from the top, 2nd from the top, 4th from the top, 2nd from the top, 2nd from the top, 5th from the top, 6th from the top and 5th from the top, along with a few main events as well. He has consistently not been in the main event or even the second to last match, because with all the screw jobs it is an awfully unfulfilling way to finish the evening. But yes, if I accept your incorrect statement as truth, well the logic of my previous statement falls apart.

I'm really surprised that you would say any heel that gets cheers isn't doing a good job being a heel. Because pretty much every heel to come along in the last decade has gotten cheers while being a heel. That's true of Rock, Austin, Flair, Hogan, Jericho, Angle, HHH, Michaels, Hall, Danielson, Foley, Raven...anyone you can name. Hell, Vince McMahon gets cheered for some of his comedy. This is wrestling in 2006. It's one thing to say that a heel who draws all boos is doing the best job. I don't agree with that, but it seems palatable. But to say "good heels don't get cheered"? Well, you've just shit on every heel in the business. Even Ryan gets his cheers.

"If you're getting boos, and you're a heel, it's a good thing. It means you're making people hate you by working them with a character. Maybe that concept is hard for you to understand, but it's been like that for a long time now in wrestling."

Well then explain Jarrett. Hell, explain Mike Knox in ECW Arena. You can get booed for a lot of reasons as a heel. You can be condescending if you want on this point, but you're the one being myopic if you think any heel getting booed under any circumstances is a good thing. And that's precisely my point. I don't think people were booing Joey Ryan. "Boo Ryan. We hate you for using the rag." It was "boo, we want some finishes in the title matches. Why isn't this Ryan style reign ever going to end?"

And I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see your list of 20 Joey Ryan matches better than Jeff Jarrett vs. Shawn Michaels from In Your House 1995. Seeing that list would bring me great personal joy. Please write it up.
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Postby ToddMartin » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:42 pm

Just to clarify, since there were a bunch of posts while I was writing up my response, everything included in that post is a specific response to Andy's last post, and nothing that came after it.
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Postby ozmania » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:55 pm

I think a lot of us are guilty of over exaggeration on the boards but it's hard to take Todd Martin seriously when he is blatantly wrong about facts. I was there live and the Sabin Dusty finish pop rivaled the B-Boy nearfall on Sunday.
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Postby The Masked Akeem » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:18 pm

ToddMartin wrote:And I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see your list of 20 Joey Ryan matches better than Jeff Jarrett vs. Shawn Michaels from In Your House 1995. Seeing that list would bring me great personal joy. Please write it up.


That is one of three matches that immediately came to mind when thinking of Jarrett's best stuff.

I think a lot of today's fans don't realize how awesome a worker Jeff Jarrett was once upon a time, and have mostly grown to hate him based on his TNA run which is understandable. But that ignores the work he did in the early-mid 90's, when Jarrett was a lot younger, and a lot better.
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Postby TigerDriver98 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:23 pm

ToddMartin wrote:
Joey Ryan 4 way had more heat than Dragon & Richards vs. Hero & Castagnoli?


Actually, I would say the 4-way had a good deal more heat than the Tag match at that show. And IIRC the Sabin "title win" pop was among the loudest I've heard at a PWG show this year.

And I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see your list of 20 Joey Ryan matches better than Jeff Jarrett vs. Shawn Michaels from In Your House 1995. Seeing that list would bring me great personal joy. Please write it up.


Hmm, now THAT is a bit of a stretch. I can't stand Jarrett.... but HBK-Jarrett was a damn good match.
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Postby onlxn » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:36 am

Agree that the 4-way was hotter than Dragey/Kings; on the other hand, there's no way that Joey vs. Frankie had the heat that B-Boy/Tornado vs. Arrogance had at "Fear Of A Black Planet". People popped for the ass stuff, sure, but that certainly wasn't the hottest match on the show. In general I'd say that Joey's defenses are *occasionally* the hottest matches on shows, but not *often*. And frankly, I don't think pops for Dusty title wins are indicative that a heel's shtick is working; people pop when they think they're seeing a title change live, no matter who's involved. I think Joey's shtick *is* working decently, but I hardly think that the pop for Sabin is the best evidence of that.

I'll be interested to see how Joey's recent stuff holds up on DVD. People (myself included) always have a tendency to overrate stuff they've seen live; part of me thinks that Joey's heeling won't be nearly as interesting when viewed a bit down the road. Could be wrong about that, though.
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Postby onlxn » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:39 am

The Masked Akeem wrote:I think a lot of today's fans don't realize how awesome a worker Jeff Jarrett was once upon a time, and have mostly grown to hate him based on his TNA run which is understandable.

Actually, I think he's better now than he was then, if anything; he's upgraded his offense a bit and moved away from emulating Flair, which he was never all that good at.

I'd probably agree that the HBK match is his best one, but he's doing some of his most solid work these days. Hell, he got a good match out of a barely mobile Raven a couple weeks ago; Joey has nothing on his resume to compare to that.
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Postby Aaron » Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:47 am

PsychoDriver wrote:
PsychoDriver wrote:
He's a good wrestler.


Calling Jeff Jarrett a good wrestler is like calling gas prices cheap.


Oh, I just thought of another one. Calling Jeff Jarrett a good wrestler is like calling George Bush a good president.


The second one actually worked there because your petrol prices are, um, cheap. ;)

Personally, I think HBK vs Jarret from IYH2 is a little overrated but it is a good match.

I'd rather watch Joey Ryan vs Super Dragon for an hour or Joey Ryan vs Scott Lost with a ladder. . . there aren't 20 matches and Jarrett is better but I'd take those two Joey matches over anything with Jarrett right now. . . of course, I'm open to suggestions. What Jarrett classics have I missed?
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Postby bford24 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:56 am

As far as Joey's heel heat goes all you have to look at is "Die, Joey Die". I think that chant says enough about the heel heat he gets.
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Postby ToddMartin » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:57 am

ozmania wrote:I think a lot of us are guilty of over exaggeration on the boards but it's hard to take Todd Martin seriously when he is blatantly wrong about facts. I was there live and the Sabin Dusty finish pop rivaled the B-Boy nearfall on Sunday.


Where am I wrong about facts? I've pointed out facts where Andy was "blatantly wrong," such as suggesting Ryan has been second from the top whenever he's not been in main events. And I wouldn't even argue screwing that up makes it "hard to take [him] seriously." It just makes him blatantly wrong on that specific point. It happens. And I'm almost certain I haven't been blatantly wrong on anything here seeing as how pops are subjective and hard to read, depending on where you are in the building, and the variance on the type of reactions from individuals. Besides that, I wouldn't say the Sabin Dusty finish pop rivaled the B-Boy pop from Sunday. There was much more excitement for the latter in my mind. Everyone was on their feet counting along very loudly, screaming and cheering. Whereas Sabin-Ryan there wasn't much heat throughout the match, and then about 85 percent of the audience popped when they thought Sabin won because they were so surprised and it didn't expect it. I say 85 percent because I recognized it as a Dusty finish immediately so I actually turned around to look at how many people were fooled, and while the strong majority were, there were people still sitting, not cheering or even with annoyed looks on their faces. And even if it did rival it, as onlxn points out, you're supposed to get a big reaction when you act like there is a title change and the challenger is holding up the title in the air. If you think this was some fantastic pop, look at a tape of other Dusty finishes where the fans thought they had a title change, like the Final Battle match I referred to, or hell, the Nasty Boys vs. Harlem Heat from Superbrawl 1995 just as a random example. As I said, I don't think the Sabin pop was all that great in that context, and certainly not something I would point to as evidence of a lot of heat for Ryan's title defenses. I think you don't want to listen to what I have to if that statement of all statements in this thread was the credibility killer for you.
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Postby ToddMartin » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 am

And as far as the 4 way, Dragon/Richards-Castagnoli/Hero comparison goes, maybe the former did have more heat. That's really not the way I remember it, but obviously I seem in the minority on that specific point, and as I think I said earlier, I don't get the DVDs so I'm just going on memories.
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Postby ozmania » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:04 am

What hurts your argument is that you continue to try and justify yourself with what you "think" rather than what everyone already knows is fact. You don't "think" that the Sabin pop rivaled the B-Boy pop, when it's been said by atleast three different people in this thread that it did. You think that your opinion has some sort of validity when in fact you're just a fan like everyone else here.

And I don't get the hang up on card placement. It just seems like PWG likes to run a big match before intermission as well as before the end of the show. With your logic, it could be said that RVD isn't over because at the last PPV his title match wasn't the main event. Or Kurt Angle wasn't a good champion because his title match wasn't the main event at Wrestlemania. Is that what you want us to believe?

That's like saying the fans threw trash at the ring because they didn't want to see Joey rather than just being upset that they got worked. Did the crowd not want to see the nWo when they pelted the ring with trash at them?
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Postby noah_ther » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:05 am

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I've never gone to a show strictly to see Joey lose the belt. If anything the Tag Titles were built stronger and had more heat than any other Joey title defense save the one last week against B-Boy. Joey has never been a draw and people can argue that fans go to see Joey drop the belt, but I think people either go because they are die hard PWG fans, were there to see other Indy stars they've never seen before, or were there for the Tag Title matches. To me none of Joey's title defenses seemed legit in the sense that he could lose the title. The only one that really had me believing was his match vs Sabin and even then I think the B-Boy cage match was a bit more heated. To say that Joey's title reign is a "draw" seems like an exaggeration to me. People go for a number of reasons, but I've never talked to anyone who said, "I had to be at this show JUST to see Joey lose". Then again I could be wrong, like I said, I'm probably just in the minority.
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Postby ToddMartin » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:39 am

ozmania wrote:What hurts your argument is that you continue to try and justify yourself with what you "think" rather than what everyone already knows is fact. You don't "think" that the Sabin pop rivaled the B-Boy pop, when it's been said by atleast three different people in this thread that it did. You think that your opinion has some sort of validity when in fact you're just a fan like everyone else here.

And I don't get the hang up on card placement. It just seems like PWG likes to run a big match before intermission as well as before the end of the show. With your logic, it could be said that RVD isn't over because at the last PPV his title match wasn't the main event. Or Kurt Angle wasn't a good champion because his title match wasn't the main event at Wrestlemania. Is that what you want us to believe?

That's like saying the fans threw trash at the ring because they didn't want to see Joey rather than just being upset that they got worked. Did the crowd not want to see the nWo when they pelted the ring with trash at them?


What an odd series of comments. First, since when did three people having one opinion and two people having another make the three people's opinion fact? I think based on being there and observing both pops that the B-Boy false finish was a lot louder than the Sabin teased title change. You think differently. It's odd that somehow you take your opinion to be fact. Then you reprimand me for thinking my opinion has validity. Well yes, that tends to be true of everyone's opinion. It wouldn't be your opinion if you didn't think it was right. And yes, I'm a fan with an opinion, just like everyone else here. You're the one saying that opinions are wrong. I'm just stating mine.

As far as card placement, of course it's not *that* big of a deal one way or another. But I tend to think your singles title should be the main event most shows. That's how most promotions have always done it for the significance of the title. The examples you bring up in WWE are the extreme minority, while Ryan's matches on the undercard have been the majority. And I'm not criticizing Ryan as champion. I'm criticizing the booking of the title. I'm not saying they don't want to see Ryan. I'm saying they don't want to see a screwjob in every title match, and Ryan symbolizes that by this point.

Stuff can be thrown at the ring for different reasons. Sometimes stuff thrown at the NWO was good, because it reflected a lot of heat. Sometimes stuff thrown at the NWO was bad, because it reflected frustration that guys like the Horsemen were getting buried. Sometimes stuff thrown at the NWO was neither, because it was a Pavlovian reaction. I'm just giving my *opinion* as to the reason of the stuff being thrown this specific instance. My take on this instance was it was frustration over yet another screw job when they all but promised there would finally be a title match settled by the better man winning. That's not the right type of heat, if indeed that's what it was. See people throwing stuff at the Octagon after Shamrock-Ortiz for a recent example of the wrong kind of heat being involved with objects being thrown.
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Postby onlxn » Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:43 am

ozmania wrote:What hurts your argument is that you continue to try and justify yourself with what you "think" rather than what everyone already knows is fact. You don't "think" that the Sabin pop rivaled the B-Boy pop, when it's been said by atleast three different people in this thread that it did. You think that your opinion has some sort of validity when in fact you're just a fan like everyone else here.

This is pretty feeble logic. Everyone's throwing out a million subjective and sometimes goofy claims; Andy's thrown out a lot more than Todd has for instance. Acting like Todd's take on one pop is somehow proof that he's hard to take seriously is a little ridiculous; I think he's a bit off too, but even so, it's one of the *least* outlandish claims in this thread.

That's like saying the fans threw trash at the ring because they didn't want to see Joey rather than just being upset that they got worked. Did the crowd not want to see the nWo when they pelted the ring with trash at them?

This I'll agree with -- people were throwing trash because they were engaged by the action. (Actually, I think a lot of people threw trash because they'd seen fans throw trash on TV lately -- that's silly, but it doesn't mean the angle didn't work.)
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