2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby AmericanWolvesMark » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:18 pm

Matt Flash wrote:
El Hijo del Generico wrote:
Matt Flash wrote:Maybe you could blame it on they Joey hate, or maybe still on Hero's overall saturation of elbows, but the crowd was DEAD during the Superkick/Elbow sequence. Flat as shit. I can get over his overuse of elbows in the right spots/moments/matches. No one cared when they were just destroying each other with their signature strikes. And they should have.


Since the crowd turned on Joey after his Claudio match, I find it hard to believe that Hero's elbows were to blame. If the crowd is booing, chanting "this is bullshit" and mad about Joey, and then they stay mad, how can you ascribe any of the crowd's issues to Hero? People were still chanting for him.

Matt Flash wrote:Either way, I don't see why Wolves at yelling Hero "You're better than this" means he's trying to insult Hero and get himself over. It's not like he's one of the fucking douchebags yelling out stupid shit like "I HATE SWISS CHEESE" at Claudio, or "TAKE HIM TO BOOTCAMP!" when Hero throws his opponent into his foot in the corner. And he didn't say it in the stupid chanting cadence trying to get other people to join in with him. He had an opinion, he said it directly at Hero and not to anyone else in the crowd, and that was that. That's not insulting. That's criticism. Not constructive criticism, but then again it's not insulting or hateful either. He's got an opinion and he voiced it. Why's that not ok?


It's not ok because it is a false criticism to being with. It's not ok because someone in the audience is breaking up the spirit of the match with the loud, wrong, and mistaken criticism at the wrong moment. He can hate it and say it here, fine. But to be both wrong and to try to get other people in the crowd to look at you while you are being so clever and critical is the problem. It is insulting, because saying "you're better than this" says what you are doing is not good or is low quality. I agree that the other comments were stupid, but when a great wrestler is having a crowd member count and criticize a move during the match it is disrespectful, and when he is the only one saying that, it appears that he is trying to get everyone else's attention.

Matt Flash wrote:Another sidenote: Anybody remember the Young Bucks' heel turn back at DDT4 2009? Of course you do. Who's to say this is any different, with Joey getting absolutely shit on? It's like literally the EXACT same situation.


It's a very similar situation, and the causes are alot a like. I think that one major difference is that the Bucks going into that DDT4 had not been doing comedy matches and missing shows. I think both those things made it problematic for Joey to win.


Sorry, that was unclear. I didn't mean Hero's elbows were the reason people were hating on Joey. I meant the oversaturation could have been a reason that the Superkick/Forearm sequence had the crowd so quiet. There was still massive cheering for Hero, but that spot got hardly any reaction.

And who are you to say Wolves yelled something so he could get himself over and try and get the crowd's attention? I was sitting right next to the guy. He even said in his post he'd only yell it when Hero walked by him. Not in the middle of the match, where things are silent, and he'd have to raise his voice, letting everyone hear him. Just when Hero walked by. And it's just his opinion. Not right or wrong, just his own thoughts. Criticism is in the eye of the beholder (not the exact phrase, fuck it). Something someone else loves, you may hate. And vice versa. He paid for the ticket, and has every right to express how he's feeling about something he likes, or doesn't like. That's the whole point of going to a show. To be entertained, allow yourself to get hooked emotionally and get into the matches. Get lost in the matches and storylines. As long as you're not trying to start a chant or get yourself over, there's nothing wrong with voicing your displease with someone or something. And I honestly believe he did it in the most friendly and non insulting way. You can disagree but you can't say the dude was wrong.

Not to mention saying "You're better than this" absolutely does NOT mean he thinks Hero sucks. It doesn't mean he thinks Hero can't wrestle, or that his wrestling is low quality. If I were to say a team had a really good record, even though they lost some games they should've won, and my comment is "come on guys, you're better than this", that doesn't mean I think the team is shit. They're just performing under the standards I've set. Maybe I've got too lofty of goals, and Wolves has too lofty expectations for Hero. Maybe, but it could also mean that Wolves has seen Hero in other matches, and liked that style more than his current one. It's an opinion, bro, nothing more and nothing less.


Thank you Matt for defending my opinion. Hell, i even said it before that my thoughts on Hero are just an opinion and should be taken with a grain of salt. (Sidenote: You were sitting near me? How far away from me were you?) Again, if you've seen recent ROH matches, Hero throws maybe 1 to 2 maybe even 3 at most elbows a match and the rest of his moveset are power/Lucha moves. He's fucking epic in those (granted Claudio does half of the work so there's not much of a chance for him to do that, but even in his singles matches, he knows when the match calls for one wicked elbow and it works) . Why is it that in PWG he feels the need to throw 5+ elbows frequently. Again, I say this as a joke, a joke so we're clear, it's like he knows that I hate his elbows and does em on purpose anyways. (again, joke, not to be taken seriously).

Anyways, I think the reason that everyone crapped on that Hero/Joey trading elbows spot was that they had done 889446453145 Elbows/Superkicks before that and at that point, it became major overkill.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby El Hijo del Generico » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:23 pm

Matt Flash wrote:
And who are you to say Wolves yelled something so he could get himself over and try and get the crowd's attention? I was sitting right next to the guy. He even said in his post he'd only yell it when Hero walked by him. Not in the middle of the match, where things are silent, and he'd have to raise his voice, letting everyone hear him. Just when Hero walked by.


I heard him when he was mockingly counting elbows. If he was privately keeping this opinion, how could I hear it from far away?

Matt Flash wrote:And it's just his opinion. Not right or wrong, just his own thoughts. Criticism is in the eye of the beholder (not the exact phrase, fuck it). Something someone else loves, you may hate. And vice versa. He paid for the ticket, and has every right to express how he's feeling about something he likes, or doesn't like. That's the whole point of going to a show. To be entertained, allow yourself to get hooked emotionally and get into the matches. Get lost in the matches and storylines. As long as you're not trying to start a chant or get yourself over, there's nothing wrong with voicing your displease with someone or something. And I honestly believe he did it in the most friendly and non insulting way. You can disagree but you can't say the dude was wrong.


No, voice your displeasure, sure. But I can also voice my opinion that he is being petty and nitpicking a great wrestler by pointing out the one match of four that he did a lot of elbows, after he shied away from them all weekend. You'd think Hero had taken his fucking lunch money or something form the way people won't let it go.

Matt Flash wrote:Not to mention saying "You're better than this" absolutely does NOT mean he thinks Hero sucks. It doesn't mean he thinks Hero can't wrestle, or that his wrestling is low quality. If I were to say a team had a really good record, even though they lost some games they should've won, and my comment is "come on guys, you're better than this", that doesn't mean I think the team is shit.


If someone is doing something and you say they are better than what they are doing, you ARE insulting them, because you are saying that the thing they are doing is bad. He might not think Hero sucks, but that is still a dick thing to say. If you were at your job and your boss said "you're better than that" wouldn't you take that as a critical shot at your performance?
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby AmericanWolvesMark » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:36 am

El Hijo del Generico wrote:
Matt Flash wrote:And it's just his opinion. Not right or wrong, just his own thoughts. Criticism is in the eye of the beholder (not the exact phrase, fuck it). Something someone else loves, you may hate. And vice versa. He paid for the ticket, and has every right to express how he's feeling about something he likes, or doesn't like. That's the whole point of going to a show. To be entertained, allow yourself to get hooked emotionally and get into the matches. Get lost in the matches and storylines. As long as you're not trying to start a chant or get yourself over, there's nothing wrong with voicing your displease with someone or something. And I honestly believe he did it in the most friendly and non insulting way. You can disagree but you can't say the dude was wrong.


No, voice your displeasure, sure. But I can also voice my opinion that he is being petty and nitpicking a great wrestler by pointing out the one match of four that he did a lot of elbows, after he shied away from them all weekend. You'd think Hero had taken his fucking lunch money or something form the way people won't let it go.


Ok, he did elbow crazy once during the tournament. But let me count the other shows from when he started using the move constantly to where he went overboard with it:

Express Written Consent (it's the fist time he did it, so I had never seen it and thought it was cool. And it made sense in the context of the match as there were two other competitors in the match)
DDT4 09 (Does like 6 to Joey)
Threemendous II (This is where I started to get on him for it because every other move it seemed like was an elbow)
Speed of Sound (first did the Death Blow, so that was cool, but Roddy kicked out of all the other elbows, cheapening the move even more)
Guerre Sans Frotiers (see my Roddy explanation from above, except insert AmDrag. In fact, that was the show where a lot of people started chanting Fuck Your Elbow at him)

Then I guess he listened to the crowd and cut back on them, but then recently:
DIO (He did a few to Gatson sure, but then how can he start cutting a promo where he says that he doesn't need the elbow to win, when he did an elbow, which led directly to the finish? I started the "You Just Did" chant that made dvd and kinda pissed him off)
Seven (did a good number to Davey, but it was a long overdue title shot and the whole thing was supposed to be stiff anyways, so no complaints here)
BOLA 2010: Night 2 (well, we're talking about it right now, so I don't have to say anything).

Again, it's not that I hate Chris Hero, I don't. I think he's amazing and is an integral part of any wrestling roster. It's just the elbow thing is the one part of "his game" that I just can't get into.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby fatallylost » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:23 am

I'd just like to point out (and agree in one sense) that when someone says "you're better than this/that" it's a direct insult, usually used when someone has done something bad/stupid. There really is no other context for that.

While I agree sometimes Hero throws way too many elbows, I dislike it because it's supposed to be one of if not his main finisher, is it not?

Imagine is HHH had to hit at least 3 pedigrees to win. What is Tyler Black had to hit at least 5 Phoenix Splashes.

But, I also admit some other guys do it to, but, Hero does use the elbow to a ridiculous extent at times (also, keep in mind, I enjoy Hero, a lot. But, his last 2 matches with Joey bored the shit out of me for some reason)

Sure, Generico can use upwards of 3 helluva kicks, but, on a side note, I don't recall seeing many of his matches end with one. But, I digress.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby krayzie Bone » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:02 pm

All I gotta say is; El Hijo Del Generico, you are finally seeing the light. The Hero haters will never go away, thats how it was in IWA, in CZW, in ROH and everywhere else Hero wrestled, Matt Flesh is writting novels on this message board, trying to prove that Hero does something wrong, lol so freeking stupid.

Again for the last F"N time, Hero's elbows are a set up for his finisher which is a "blow of death" his regular elbows are not his finishers.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby jdw » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:24 pm

El Hijo del Generico wrote:Since the crowd turned on Joey after his Claudio match, I find it hard to believe that Hero's elbows were to blame. If the crowd is booing, chanting "this is bullshit" and mad about Joey, and then they stay mad, how can you ascribe any of the crowd's issues to Hero? People were still chanting for him.


Yeah, it was specifically when he got that three count on Caludio. The majority of fans hated that. I don't recall the fans even disliking him much during the match with Claudio: good match, fans were enjoying. It's just when that three count hit against Caludio that folks went batshit in a "wrong" way.

They weren't over it when he came out to face Hero, and were on his ass even before the main event started (even with three crowd pleasing matches in between). The fans hated Joey because he beat Claudio. They held it against him through the whole match with Hero, only backing off to a degree when the match was good and largely when Hero as on top. When Joey beat Hero, the majority hated Joey.

It's not entirely fair. He had a good tourney, all four of his matches were good, and his performance in all of them was solid. The injury sounds legit, so you have to respect him working through three good matches in a night banged up. I was with two people who were both embarassed by the venom of the crowd, but also pissed at the promotion for screwing up.

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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Meltman » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:54 pm

You've got a continuous venue and you've got your regulars. The turn on Joey, for this reason, doesn't surprise me all too much.

This is pretty much guarantees more Claudio bookings, though. I don't want The Kings in PWG; I want them Claudio booked as a singles monster.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Meltman » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:56 pm

Holy fuck, those sentences are full of mistakes.

But yeah, more Claudio and Ricochet for certain. Next show I'd love a Hero/Claudio singles match booked. Hero's faced pretty much everyone else except some locals who'd make great opponents (Goodtime, R, Taylor).
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Matt Flash » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:07 pm

I'm pretty shitty at filtering message board post thoughts. They're stream of conscience replies, takes about 3 minutes to write.

And ya know what guys, fair enough. I like Hero, he's a damn good wrestler. That's something we can all agree on, so I'll leave it at that and stop myself.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby jonny craig » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:52 pm

I dont think I saw anyone write about this but, I think the fans were pissed at the finish of the Claudio vs Joey match for another reason. When he jumped off the ropes I think Joey was supposed to connect with a superkick to the jaw but got him in the stomach instead, so he had to hit him with another one when he was on his knees. I really think everyone wanted to see him hit that move but when he didnt, nobody wanted to except that he beat Claudio. Joey Ryan has bad ass entrance music by the way
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Detroitboi » Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:43 pm

jonny craig wrote:Joey Ryan has bad ass entrance music by the way


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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby fatallylost » Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:07 am

I may be wrong, but, I think the kneeling superkick is actually one of Joey's moves (or moves now) I swear I saw him mention it last week.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby krayzie Bone » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:14 am

I just saw a match between Tyler Black and Davey Richards from ROH's Death Before Dishonor 2010. The ROH fans voted it five star match, but talking about repetativeness of moves, holy shit, Davey threw about 100 kicks and Tyler hit about 100 superkicks. How come no one is criticizing them?
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Tarfoo » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:47 pm

jonny craig wrote:I dont think I saw anyone write about this but, I think the fans were pissed at the finish of the Claudio vs Joey match for another reason. When he jumped off the ropes I think Joey was supposed to connect with a superkick to the jaw but got him in the stomach instead, so he had to hit him with another one when he was on his knees. I really think everyone wanted to see him hit that move but when he didnt, nobody wanted to except that he beat Claudio. Joey Ryan has bad ass entrance music by the way


Joey tweeted about using Tyler Black's trademark superkick, in which the opponent is kneeling. So it must've been intentional.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Matt Flash » Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:24 pm

krayzie Bone wrote:I just saw a match between Tyler Black and Davey Richards from ROH's Death Before Dishonor 2010. The ROH fans voted it five star match, but talking about repetativeness of moves, holy shit, Davey threw about 100 kicks and Tyler hit about 100 superkicks. How come no one is criticizing them?

That match was really good, but really overrated, too. I watched it live on the iPPV and I was into it, but then it'd be kind've hard not to with 15 minutes of false finishes. You're bound to bite on one eventually. And those false finishes fooled a lot of people into thinking that match was better than what it really was. Definitely a case of a match being bigger and better than the sum of it's parts.

They definitely overdid it with the repetitiveness of moves and strikes.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby krayzie Bone » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:51 pm

Yes, the near finishers are fun when wrestlers use variety of moves, but when they just use same moves over and over again, it becomes boring. In Hero's case however it is an exception because the elbows make perfect sense, the elbows are not finishers they are designed to weaken the opponent and set him up for the blow of death, notice Hero never does more then one blow of death in the same match. If the blow of death does not work, Hero uses other finishers, this is not the case with other ROH wrestlers, they literally throw same finishers at least 5 times in the same match, I have no idea why the fans like it.
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Re: 2010 Battle of Los Angeles takes place September 4 & 5!

Postby Meltman » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:14 am

Just how bad was Cage at BOLA? I watched Bonham/Cage from Seven last night and that was a superb match, they really dropped bombs on each other. Cage's spinning lariat looked better than almost anyone I've seen do the move.
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