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Postby dxreydx » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:36 pm

Bosh is
1) Not fat like he was in 04
2) Doesn't need racist promos or need to mess with deranged fans as Andy pointed out.
3) His wrestling is actually a focus of his character instead of just relying on his mic work and before I could care less about Bosh's ring work.
4) Bosh peaked in terms of getting heat/pop last year winning BOLA. Now people look forward to watching Bosh in a match and yes he does get his pops.
5) You can't really find a "bad" wrestler in PWG even Ronin has grown on me as a wrestler I can actually watch and not cringe. Isn't Bosh doing that Dragongate thing?

PWG still has "random" matches, but its frequency has declined drastically. Even though the SD vs the new SBS storyline kind of dissapeared out of no where.

Bosh is probaly the rare wrestler who could have a shitty match, but still get good pops because of his character.
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Postby Bean » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:06 pm

I like how onlxn doesn't pay attention to anything, but thinks he knows everything *owned by TF*
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Postby It's A Bomb » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:49 pm

I thought I was the only one who thinks onlxn tries too hard to act like he knows everything. A lot of his posts here and from some I see on DVDR that my friend shows me always leave a bad taste in my mouth. I wanted to make a reply to him, but SCAndy pretty much delivered every point I wanted to make(and some, and less hateful) with his post.
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Postby onlxn » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:04 pm

Umm, what shows are you watching? Bosh is getting more than just "occasional" chants and still has heat.

I've been to three of the last four shows. He's not *heatless*, but he's back to where he was in '04 -- a midcarder who people like. There was an electricity when Bosh entered the ring last year that's simply gone now. I wish it weren't true, as I like Bosh, and I'd like to see him as champion... but it'll be months before they can build him back up to get there.

A lot of his matches lately(Elimination 4 Way, Cape Fear tags) have given him plenty of heat, and he got the biggest pop during the Triple Threat at ASW 3.

He got the biggest pop beore the match started, but really none of the three guys got much of a pop from that burned-out crowd. He *didn't* get pops for many of his spots, other than the Lioncock punch.

He's just as over as he was last year, but he's now over because he's showcasing his wrestling more and isn't having to rely on racist promos and fucking with retards to get pops. He hardly looks horrible.

I'm delighted that he's showcasing his wrestling, because I really like him as a worker. But think of it this way: in '04, his heat was a 6 out of 10. Last year, he (and the company) pushed it all the way to 9 or 10 out of 10. That's an awesome, rare thing; a company can't take for granted that they'll get *any* worker to that level. At this point, Bosh is back to a 6 out of 10. He's over, and people like him, but he's not close to being any sort of phenomenon anymore. That's just a shame. When guys get that over, you *have* to give them the ball.

Chris Bosh's loses almost all came from being cheated or screwed over, and Arrogance have only been in three tag matches since BOLA.

I wouldn't call the roll-up in the Steen/Styles three-way being "screwed over". Certainly Steen beating him with the top-rope Package Piledriver was pretty conclusive. From what I've heard, he took two clean pins in Europe, and he took the BuckleBuster pin you mentioned.

They're not all embarrassing losses, but they're all *losses*. If you have a super-over face, dignified losses are still far more damaging than wins. And you can tell PWG understands this, because they did a marvelous job preserving Steen's heat in exactly the way I'm talking about.

(Honestly, Steen is the best argument for why they'd want to de-push Bosh. He's also super-over, and in a similar way to Bosh, so you could argue that they had to run with one or the other. But frankly there was a way to keep both red-hot, and they didn't do it.)

The outcome of the Three Way can be disputed, because nobody knows what was really going to happen.

Disagree. I was sitting right where Bosh was recovering from the concussion. Bigg E. Biggz and the other people attending to Bosh were really freaked out that Dragon was throwing him back into the ring in his condition. Clearly the only reason Dragon would've risked doing that was because Bosh was supposed to eat the pin all along.

Plus his singles record before BOLA wasn't anything to sing about, and seeing as PWG used BOLA to help elevate Bosh it still seems like a smart move in my mind.

Don't get me wrong: I think having Bosh win BOLA was absolutely the right move. I just think they needed to follow up on it properly. And shit, I don't even think he necessarily needed to take the belt from Steen; I think AJ should've eaten the roll-up in the three-way instead of Bosh, but I'm down with the "extended chase" storyline. I'd say that Bosh's heat was still salavageable through "Teen Outreach Summit", at which time he'd beaten Scott and scared the hell out of Joey.

But look what's happened since then.

2/04/06 - Joey pins Bosh in a four-way via chairshot. No question, it was a dirty loss. Still, Bosh was pinned. Steen wasn't. There's a way to get your big names through storylines without eating a lot of pins.

2/18/06 - Steen pins Bosh in a #1 Contenders Match in Germany. If I'm remembering correctly, Steen won with the Package Piledriver; however he won, it was another big opportunity that Bosh failed to capitalize on.

2/19/06 - Dragon & Davey beat Arrogance to retain the tag belts in England. I'm pretty sure Bosh ate the pin, but I don't know for a fact, and I'll agree with you that Arrogance losses aren't necessarily as damaging to Bosh's cause. Still... he's 0-3, in three important matches, since pushing Joey to the limit.

3/04/06 - Cape Fear and Arrogance go to a no-contest (actually, technically Cape Fear wins by DQ). No problem there.

3/18/06 - Cape Fear beats Arrogance in a #1 Contenders Match when Generico pins Bosh. Bosh's fourth straight finish where he can't get the job done for something big, and either his third or fourth straight pinfall loss.

4/08/06 - Bosh eats the pin in the Dragon/Joey three-way for the PWG Title. Certainly seemed like that was the plan. Five straight big matches, five straight losses, four or five straight pinfall losses. Three or four of them clean.

He's not the struggling hero anymore; he's a midcarder who can't win the big one. And let's not kid ourselves -- he simply *wasn't* that over at "Crazymania". Over, sure, but nothing like he was last summer.

I certainly don't think it was bad for Bosh that he won BOLA; obviously that kind of push can only help a worker. But I *do* think that his performance since has hurt *BOLA*. It's not going to help that tournament get on that map that its inaugural champion is a struggling midcarder. If BOLA's going to be meaningful, its winners need to go on to great things, in PWG and elsewhere. Bosh hasn't.

His record might not be impressive post-BOLA, but a lot of great sports teams go through slumps.

True... but we can agree, at least, that it's a slump? It's not simply losses due to cheating -- he's having some genuinely bad results.

His failing to capture the PWG title is another issue. Lets review, shall we?


Let's do it.

vs. Steen on 10/1-By way of DQ

A fine result, as they rightly wanted to keep Steen strong, too. As I said earlier, I don't think it was a tragedy that he didn't take the belt off of Steen.

vs. Steen vs. AJ on 10/14-Took on two people at once, took a brainbuster on the ring apron, and was pin by a school boy that came out of nowhere

Well, they all took on two people at once. :) It's not the most damaging type of pin, but a guy coming off that BOLA run shouldn't have been pinned at all. AJ should've been rolled up, not Bosh.

vs. Steen on 11/19-Lost after taking a 2nd Rope Package Piledriver

Right. A helluva finish, to be sure, but still a conclusive loss. Steen very convincingly was the better man that night.

vs. Joey on 1/21-Beat Joey by countout when Joey felt he was going to lose the belt because despite everything Joey was doing to Bosh to put him away

Yep. Good stuff. I think we need to remember that Joey *usually* looks like he thinks he's going to win the belt. Still, he ends up pinning a lot of guys, and he didn't pin Bosh here. Things are going fine for Bosh...

vs. Joey vs. Steen vs. AJ on 2/4-Lost after taking a chairshot from Steen and pinned by Joey while he was out

...and they start to fall apart here. I was at this point, as I believe you were. Bosh was clearly the afterthought in the match. Steen got saved from a pin. AJ did a lot and went down to the wire with Joey. Bosh was fairly unceremoniously chairshotted and pin in the middle of everything. Completely deflated the crowd, and I think this is where Bosh started to lose his top-carder heat for good.

vs. Joey vs. Dragon on 4/8-Accidental KO from Dragon, no telling what could of happend

As I wrote earlier, I disagree with this. Dragon's called audibles in his career (mainly Rev Pro) where he eats a pin he wasn't supposed to eat. Why would he throw a really badly hurt man into the ring to eat an unscheduled pin? Bosh was supposed to job here. I don't doubt that he would've been made to look better in the loss, but he was supposed to job, AGAIN.

Looking at the past and reading this over, I still don't buy the "Bosh has been made to look like shit" statements.

Not like shit; that's overstating it. But Bosh has been made to look like a midcarder.

A lot of the people who face Joey Ryan never win, so I don't buy that statement either seeing as the majority of cheap tactics in PWG stem from Joey's matches.

There's a difference between Sabin losing once to Joey's shenanigans and Bosh losing to them *four* times. Continuing to succumb to Joey's cheating makes Bosh look weaker than the other challengers. You buy that Sabin or Steen could take the belt off of Joey if they just got one more chance; you know Bosh wouldn't, because he's continually gotten that extra chance and continually failed.

Watch the Bosh match on DVD from 1/21. The entire time, Joey is doing more to try and put Bosh away until he realizes Bosh will keep coming back. Joey threw Bosh off the top rope to the floor while Bosh tried to go for a superplex, and he powerbombed him on the ring apron to soften up his already injured back some more. It's pretty obvious to tell that Joey is afraid of Bosh a lot more, and the entire underdog concept seems obviously being built up with Bosh's current record.

That match was great for Bosh -- that's been the one well-told chapter lately. But if you look at things now, Joey's clearly not afraid of Bosh. He doesn't mention him in interviews anymore, and he's pinned him twice since then.

I already pointed out how it's more of the former rather than the latter in my earlier points, and how he still has heat. Bosh's drop in the card can be explained in many ways, and PWG always does some sort of twist in their angles that are usually played out when they last a long time. Don't just claim PWG is making a big mistake right now, because it's hard to tell what's really happening in the direction of the company.

I think we're getting closer to understanding each other here. You're admitting that Bosh has dropped in the card. I'll acknowledge that it's not necessarily bad for the company that he has. If they want to run with Steen or B-Boy instead, that's their prerogative, and I have no doubt they'll do a good job with it. But I think Bosh's drop on the cards is clearly bad for *Bosh*, and I also think the drop has been significant enough so that they'll need to build him up for awhile if they want to do anything meaningful with him.

Don't be to quick to hop on the "Bosh has been de-pushed" bandwagon.

I AM THE "BOSH HAS BEEN DE-PUSHED" BANDWAGON! :)

I disagree -- I like that Styles won TPI, and that Daniels again won the Super 8.


You might of liked it, but the core fanbase of the IWA-MS were really upset and when Daniels won the Super 8 again it started to seem less appealing to fans everywhere.

I certainly don't think that TPI was hurt by Styles' win in '04, as that's easily its most high-profile year ever. You may be right about the Super 8, though. Certainly it wouldn't be good to have big names win every tourney all the time.

The fanbase PWG is currently marketing their product to isn't the type who buy shows based on who wins a tournament, they want to see good matches.

Absolutely. But still, I think there's a balance between good matches and making a tourney feel special. Having big names advance, so their losses mean more, or their wins make the tourneys mean more, is a good thing to do in moderation. (I'd argue that Norm Conners' Super Indy tournaments haven't really gotten on the map because he's too aggressive about putting his regulars over the big names. Makes them just seem like IWC shows, not star-studded showdowns.)

In the kayfabe sense, having a bigger name win the whole thing might seem like a good idea, but it would be better to establish someone else before blowing loads over guys like Styles or Daniels.

Agreed. Again, I thought Bosh was the right choice last year. But his struggles since have slightly tarnished BOLA's reputation. It's not the tourney that made Chris Bosh; it's the tourney that Chris Bosh did oddly well in, before going back to struggling in singles matches.

All PWG needs to do is to book good matches that people will pay to see and have their local talent put on outstanding matches and BOLA will be seen on the same level as the TPI's, BOTB's, and Super 8's. Hell, BOLA only happend once and has been seen as something major in the eyes of several people.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think there's no doubt that BOLA is gonna be huge no matter what. But I think some thoughtful use of stars -- maybe a win by a Danielson or a Cabana every three or four years -- would only make it even bigger.

Also, look at the track record of CZW's BOTB tournament, and look at all that's gone down in it. No big names(unless you count The Winger) won the tournament and yet it's still one of the most anticipated shows of the year.

I think it's *not* as anticipated as the TPI or the Super 8 by the InterNerds, partially for that very reason. (Partially because a lot of the CZW workers simply don't put on great matches.)

TPI was also seen in the same light when it was the Sweet Science 16. The biggest name on the list of winners before AJ won it was Chris Hero, and Hero wasn't an international star when he won it and it was still considered special.

I loved the early Sweet Science 16's. But there's been much more of a Web buzz over TPI since '04, and the star-studded nature of that one is a big reason why.

Another thing, the Super 8 and TPI have been around for years, BOLA is still a baby. Having big names win it isn't just going to shoot it to the top. There are several tournaments that have had guys like AJ win the whole thing but still aren't on the level of TPI and Super 8, so you can't justify your reasonings with that argument.

'Tis true. It's a complicated thing to get on the map with something like this. The Super 8 did it by really being the first tourney of this type, and by being very smart about picking interesting, on-the-rise workers every year. (Which is why you certainly have a point that Daniels' second win was problematic.) TPI has done it by consistently putting a lot of energy into their booking, and by simply making it bigger than other indy tourneys. BOLA has a chance to outdo them all. But they'll need to do what they did last year, and sprinkle a lot of stars in with the locals. You and I might buy shows for the Bosh/Quicksilver semi, but a lot of people wouldn't unless the Danielson/Styles semi was on there, too. I just think PWG will do well to remember those other, less devoted fans, as they'll sell even more DVDs that way.
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Postby dxreydx » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:27 pm

That post was long.
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Postby SoCalAndy » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:32 pm

I've been to three of the last four shows. He's not *heatless*, but he's back to where he was in '04 -- a midcarder who people like. There was an electricity when Bosh entered the ring last year that's simply gone now. I wish it weren't true, as I like Bosh, and I'd like to see him as champion... but it'll be months before they can build him back up to get there.


In 2004 Bosh was getting bad heat, in that nobody cared about him and nobody wanted to see him anymore. There is no way you can compare him to two years ago. He still gets good pops, because he's getting pops for his skills and not his promos and it shows by the crowd reactions.

He got the biggest pop beore the match started, but really none of the three guys got much of a pop from that burned-out crowd. He *didn't* get pops for many of his spots, other than the Lioncock punch.


The entire crowd was almost out of it anyways, so that can't be blamed on Bosh not being over at all.

At this point, Bosh is back to a 6 out of 10.


So if Bosh was at the level he was in 6/10, you'd think he'd be getting the "God this chubby pale guy is annoying get him out of the ring" heat right now. He's not though, so I still fail to see where you can come up with these kinds of numbers.

I wouldn't call the roll-up in the Steen/Styles three-way being "screwed over".


Ummmm, that's why I said *ALMOST* in my point.

They're not all embarrassing losses, but they're all *losses*.


Lets put it this way. Lets say some dude enters a bunch of street fights. He looks good in them, and people love him. This guy goes undefeated in a tournament and people love him. His opponents all know this, so they have to resort to drastic measures to beat him. So they just come to fights and beat the dude by using chains, 2x4's, and having their friends jump him during the fights. Does that mean he's weak? No, it just means his opponents have to resort to extremes to win and they know how much of a badass he is. This is almost the same thing with Bosh. Almost all his opponents are going to extremes. None of the casual fans at PWG and non-diehard smarks are thinking any less of him because of his loses, and it shows. Losses are losses, yes, but it all depends on the circumstances in which they take place.

Disagree. I was sitting right where Bosh was recovering from the concussion. Bigg E. Biggz and the other people attending to Bosh were really freaked out that Dragon was throwing him back into the ring in his condition. Clearly the only reason Dragon would've risked doing that was because Bosh was supposed to eat the pin all along.


There are many ways this could of gone. Dragon could of thrown him into the ring to try and get the easy win but end up getting school boyed by Joey and get the lose. Maybe there was some mis-communication in the ring and nobody knew what was supposed to go down. You can come up with whatever theory you have, but chances are that it's way off.

Don't get me wrong: I think having Bosh win BOLA was absolutely the right move. I just think they needed to follow up on it properly. And shit, I don't even think he necessarily needed to take the belt from Steen; I think AJ should've eaten the roll-up in the three-way instead of Bosh, but I'm down with the "extended chase" storyline. I'd say that Bosh's heat was still salavageable through "Teen Outreach Summit", at which time he'd beaten Scott and scared the hell out of Joey.


Bosh can still look like a threat. It hasn't been a year since BOLA, so there is still plenty of time for things to play out. There are several multi-shot weekends coming up, so things can change big time for Bosh in the coming months, hence all my "still to early to tell" arguments. And who knows why AJ couldn't of taken a pin. Maybe TNA didn't want him to take it. Again, you just can't tell.

2/04/06 - Joey pins Bosh in a four-way via chairshot. No question, it was a dirty loss. Still, Bosh was pinned. Steen wasn't. There's a way to get your big names through storylines without eating a lot of pins.


Just because Bosh got pinned doesn't mean Steen didn't get the rub in this. It just means that it takes two chair shots for Joey to pin Bosh in that match.

2/18/06 - Steen pins Bosh in a #1 Contenders Match in Germany. If I'm remembering correctly, Steen won with the Package Piledriver; however he won, it was another big opportunity that Bosh failed to capitalize on.

2/19/06 - Dragon & Davey beat Arrogance to retain the tag belts in England. I'm pretty sure Bosh ate the pin, but I don't know for a fact, and I'll agree with you that Arrogance losses aren't necessarily as damaging to Bosh's cause. Still... he's 0-3, in three important matches, since pushing Joey to the limit.


The shows aren't even out yet, so you and I can't be talking on this issue here as we don't know all the circumstances of his loses.

3/18/06 - Cape Fear beats Arrogance in a #1 Contenders Match when Generico pins Bosh. Bosh's fourth straight finish where he can't get the job done for something big, and either his third or fourth straight pinfall loss.


Fourth straight pinfall, yes, but to the SoCal crowd it was his first clean pin. While it was technicly his fourth straight time not being able to get things done, it also means that it took so much to beat him with the Turnbuckle Brainbuster.

4/08/06 - Bosh eats the pin in the Dragon/Joey three-way for the PWG Title. Certainly seemed like that was the plan. Five straight big matches, five straight losses, four or five straight pinfall losses. Three or four of them clean.


Again, no telling what was meant to happen. You really can't count this at all.

He's not the struggling hero anymore; he's a midcarder who can't win the big one. And let's not kid ourselves -- he simply *wasn't* that over at "Crazymania". Over, sure, but nothing like he was last summer.


If he's a midcarder, why are people going through so much just to beat him? He's not being treated like a midcarder by his opponents, he's being treated like a thread in my mind. Plus the main event at ASW 3 happend four hours after the opening bell, of course he wasn't going to get a huge pop. Almost everyone was tired. Even if Jesus Christ came out with Hulk Hogan wrapped up in barbwire being dragged across the floor and then John Lennon making a run in only to get struck with lightning by Jesus it wouldn't get a giant pop.

I certainly don't think it was bad for Bosh that he won BOLA; obviously that kind of push can only help a worker. But I *do* think that his performance since has hurt *BOLA*. It's not going to help that tournament get on that map that its inaugural champion is a struggling midcarder. If BOLA's going to be meaningful, its winners need to go on to great things, in PWG and elsewhere. Bosh hasn't.


I don't think anyone aside from maybe you truely think that way. I willing to bet $100 that people don't think that way at all.

True... but we can agree, at least, that it's a slump? It's not simply losses due to cheating -- he's having some genuinely bad results.


It's a slump. Yes, but it's not ruining him at all. The Lakers have been going through slumps almost all season, but now they're destroying the Suns(Moded Disco Machine and Phoenix's "MVP"!) and are doing well. Bosh could go through the same later on.

It's not the most damaging type of pin, but a guy coming off that BOLA run shouldn't have been pinned at all. AJ should've been rolled up, not Bosh.


Maybe AJ wasn't allowed to take the pin because of TNA? Who knows? It didn't do much damage, hell it probably did very little damage. Nothing bad here.

Right. A helluva finish, to be sure, but still a conclusive loss. Steen very convincingly was the better man that night.


Yeah, it was a loss, but it wasn't a normal one either. Steen pretty much had to destroy Bosh to get his win. Again, not really damaging.

...and they start to fall apart here. I was at this point, as I believe you were. Bosh was clearly the afterthought in the match. Steen got saved from a pin. AJ did a lot and went down to the wire with Joey. Bosh was fairly unceremoniously chairshotted and pin in the middle of everything. Completely deflated the crowd, and I think this is where Bosh started to lose his top-carder heat for good.


Again, just because Steen didn't get pinned doesn't mean anything. It just meant he screwed up. It also just meant Bosh had to be taken out with a chair to get beat. And I didn't think the crowd was deflated at all, and if they were, it most likely was because they wanted to see Bosh get the win and that they most likely wanted him to win. And Bosh being an afterthough in your mind, he could of been used as the underdog who failed. Again, not really damaging.

As I wrote earlier, I disagree with this. Dragon's called audibles in his career (mainly Rev Pro) where he eats a pin he wasn't supposed to eat.


Do you know this for sure? Have you spoken to Dragon about these kinds of things? If not, I don't think you can make these kinds of claims.

Why would he throw a really badly hurt man into the ring to eat an unscheduled pin? Bosh was supposed to job here. I don't doubt that he would've been made to look better in the loss, but he was supposed to job, AGAIN.


Swerve gimmick bro, always watch for it. Everyone was obviously in a panic and were trying to scramble things up. Maybe Dragon felt Bosh was going to get back up and recover and was going to pin him and win the belt? Maybe Joey was supposed to pin Dragon, but in his mind he didn't want to hurt one of the champions and went with Bsoh? Maybe they're going to use Bosh's unlucky streak and use that in the storylines coming up?

Not like shit; that's overstating it. But Bosh has been made to look like a midcarder.


You're implying it. The majority of your posts keep making things out to seem like Bosh is looking horrible and looking bad. You've also said that he's looked sloppy and said he's always getting injured. Your posts make it seem like it, even if you don't really mean the words you say.

There's a difference between Sabin losing once to Joey's shenanigans and Bosh losing to them *four* times. Continuing to succumb to Joey's cheating makes Bosh look weaker than the other challengers. You buy that Sabin or Steen could take the belt off of Joey if they just got one more chance; you know Bosh wouldn't, because he's continually gotten that extra chance and continually failed.


In Bosh's singles match, he still came closer than Sabin did so it's believable. And if you're going to use the "loses are still loses" statements, Sabin is also .000 against Joey in title matches. Same goes for Steen.

That match was great for Bosh -- that's been the one well-told chapter lately. But if you look at things now, Joey's clearly not afraid of Bosh. He doesn't mention him in interviews anymore, and he's pinned him twice since then.


The DVDs aren't even out yet, so we don't know if Joey has cut any promos about him since then. Don't jump to conclusions so quickly. And he's also pinned him twice by CHEATING, how many times do I have to repeat that point?

You're admitting that Bosh has dropped in the card.


Nope.

I certainly don't think that TPI was hurt by Styles' win in '04, as that's easily its most high-profile year ever. You may be right about the Super 8, though. Certainly it wouldn't be good to have big names win every tourney all the time.


My point wasn't that it ruined TPI, just left a bitter taste in people's mouths and ruined the meaning of what TPI has meant for years. I remember being in the chat that night and remember everyone in the chat being upset, and remember everyone on the boards being disapointed that Arik Cannon won. When Daniels won Super 8(and I believe Petey Williams too) the hype nearly died because it wasn't special. When Davey won it this year, it meant a lot more and it got huge press.

Absolutely. But still, I think there's a balance between good matches and making a tourney feel special. Having big names advance, so their losses mean more, or their wins make the tourneys mean more, is a good thing to do in moderation.


Well, advancing big names is no big deal, just them winning the whole tournaments. Things would mean more if local talent started to get upsets, and it would establish them and in the future would make future wrestlers in PWG look better once AJ and Daniels aren't available.

(I'd argue that Norm Conners' Super Indy tournaments haven't really gotten on the map because he's too aggressive about putting his regulars over the big names. Makes them just seem like IWC shows, not star-studded showdowns.)


It's not that he's aggressive putting over regulars, it's just that his tournaments aren't that good. I've seen almost every Super Indy and nothing stands out in my mind. Plus he's put over guys like Colt Cabana, AJ Styles, and Chris Sabin. And at the last Super Indy it had some star-studded matches, but it's not getting hype.

Agreed. Again, I thought Bosh was the right choice last year. But his struggles since have slightly tarnished BOLA's reputation. It's not the tourney that made Chris Bosh; it's the tourney that Chris Bosh did oddly well in, before going back to struggling in singles matches.


Again, nobody thinks BOLA's reputation has been ruined by the current booking. Chances are, nobody gives a shit about it. It's still been less than a year since it happend and we can't just be talking about the effects of Bosh's current run is having on it.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think there's no doubt that BOLA is gonna be huge no matter what. But I think some thoughtful use of stars -- maybe a win by a Danielson or a Cabana every three or four years -- would only make it even bigger.


Cabana and Styles(who's a bigger name than Danielson) couldn't help IWC's tournament, so there's nothing in your argument that can help you support your statement. Plus Cabana and Danielson aren't really PWG regulars, so that wouldn't do much to help them if they got booked like shit elsewhere when you think about it.

I think it's *not* as anticipated as the TPI or the Super 8 by the InterNerds, partially for that very reason. (Partially because a lot of the CZW workers simply don't put on great matches.)


I think it is. People buzzed about it when Dragon and B-Boy had their match and the Jody/Storm match. BOTB is still one of the most looked forward too tournaments in the US, moreso than the CHIKARA TWGP, ROH's Trio's, IWC's Super Indy, and hell at this point ECWA's Super 8.

I loved the early Sweet Science 16's. But there's been much more of a Web buzz over TPI since '04, and the star-studded nature of that one is a big reason why


But it also got the most web heat over the results of it. Plus IWA-MS was at their peak period at the time. People then looked at past TPI's and loved them because of the nature in which they've been booked.
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Postby The Masked Akeem » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:47 pm

I think the question at hand is really, what was the purpose of Bosh winning BOLA? Bosh got the pins over Generico, QuickSilver, and AJ Styles.

It's fair to assume that they wanted to elevate a guy who had a lot of success in a tag team, into more of a singles wrestler, and possibly at the level where he could be a top-tier PWG guy. This is the same booking philosophies behind the NJPW G1 tourneys of the past (when people cared about NJPW)

Now, if that wasn't the real purpose, and they were just looking to give Chris Bosh his one night on top as a singles guy without winning a belt, then everything else beneath this becomes irrelevant.

First, defining top tier. This is based not just on workrate, but how fans respond to them in the sense of "could this guy win the title?"

Note that I'm listing them as individuals, not as tag teams, as some guys get better responses than their tag partners, and I'm also not listing EVERY guy. Just trying to paint a picture.

Top Tier:
Super Dragon, AJ Styles, Chris Daniels, American Dragon, Samoa Joe, Davey Richards, Kevin Steen.

2nd tier:
Joey Ryan, Frankie Kazarian, El Generico, Human Tornado, Scott Lost, Chris Bosh, Chris Sabin, B-Boy.

3rd tier/midcard:
Quicksilver, Excalibur (when serious, lower when he's comedy), Scorpio Sky, Rocky Romero.

Bottom tier:
Topgun Talwar, Bino Gambino, Disco Machine, Ronin, Alex Koslov, TJ Perkins.

So ideally, the BOLA win should have been a jumping point for Bosh to get to top tier.

Was Bosh elevated to a top tier guy as a singles wrestler? I don't think so. Part of the problem is that he still, on occasion, tags with Lost as Arrogance. I've always thought they were much better as a tag team, but if Bosh was supposed to get a push as a singles wrestler, having him still tag with Scott hinders the ability for him to move higher up, even moreso when Arrogance no longer holds the tag titles. At the upcoming show, Arrogance is booked in an 8-man tag match which should be good, but in a match like that, there's really nothing at stake and no one is going to get elevated.

Another part of it is in the booking. There are a lot of 2nd tier guys in PWG, but the only way to be seen as a top guy, is if you go over cleanly on a top guy. Yes, Styles put him over at BOLA, but ever since, he's been in the mix with 2nd-tier wrestlers, mostly taking losses. How does that elevate Bosh to a top tier? It doesn't.

Joey Ryan as PWG champion, has really been booked like mid-80's Ric Flair. The type of wrestler who only wins when he cheats, or wins/loses by DQ, or lucks into pins through outside interference.
Is he seen as top tier? If not for his title reign and new heel character, he'd probably be 3rd tier. The belt has helped Joey, but only so much.

And then finally, it's not JUST about wins/losses and who your opponents are, but yes, workrate and ability has a lot to do with it. All Japan used to push Akira Taue in the mid-late 90's as hard as possible, and he would get his wins over Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi, etc. But the fans knew he wasn't as good of a wrestler as the other three, so when he did hold the Triple Crown title (for all of 2 months), he wasn't taken as seriously as the others. Taue was best used as Kawada's tag partner during that period, since he wasn't the guy to really carry the promotion.

Is Bosh able to have consistently great matches as a singles wrestler the same way the other people in the top tier are capable of? I don't believe so.

Super Dragon made Kevin Steen in PWG over the course of 2005 because he constantly put him over before Steen got the belt by beating AJ Styles, and getting a win over Samoa Joe. It also helps that Steen is an entertaining character, solid worker, and can have good matches with just about anyone.
That is how you move up the ladder to be a credible champion.
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Postby TigerDriver98 » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:22 pm

Maybe AJ wasn't allowed to take the pin because of TNA? Who knows? It didn't do much damage, hell it probably did very little damage. Nothing bad here.


AJ was TNA X-Division champion during that match. So that's probably why he didn't get pinned. Even last month, it was AJ who took the pin in the tag match with SD/Davey because Daniels was X-Champ at the time.

Also, I wouldn't say the ASW2 N2 match with Steen/Bosh was all that clean either. It did have Joey Ryan superkicking Bosh at the end, which didn't get the pin, but really derailed Bosh's progress.
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Postby SoCalAndy » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:32 pm

TD'98 brought up a great point I forgot about.
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Postby Ryan! » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:25 pm

TKO by SoCalAndy, Round 2 0:42
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Postby onlxn » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:38 pm

Aw, crap, I'm unpopular! Bomb, didn't you call me out in that "low priority" thread, only to disappear when it was clear that you had nothing to contribute except pissiness? I'm nowhere near always right, but my mind isn't going to be changed by people acting like boners. Andy, on the other hand, is making good, concrete points about Bosh and PWG, and thus we're having a good discussion.

In 2004 Bosh was getting bad heat, in that nobody cared about him and nobody wanted to see him anymore. There is no way you can compare him to two years ago. He still gets good pops, because he's getting pops for his skills and not his promos and it shows by the crowd reactions.

Did people not like Bosh in '04? I certainly did; I seem to remember people liking him pretty well at SCU and DVDVR. He didn't get pops because he was a heel, but he was an effective midcarder, which is more or less what he is now.

I'm not saying Bosh doesn't get a nice reaction. I'm saying that it's no longer one of the biggest reactions on PWG shows, or even close to it, really. And since he's as entertaining a performer as ever, I'm theorizing that booking is the reason why.

The entire crowd was almost out of it anyways, so that can't be blamed on Bosh not being over at all.

Yeah, fair enough, I guess... although I feel like A.J. and Steen always get pretty killer reactions in main events, no matter how long or draining the shows are.

So if Bosh was at the level he was in 6/10, you'd think he'd be getting the "God this chubby pale guy is annoying get him out of the ring" heat right now.

Again, that's simply not the reaction I remember Bosh getting in '04. I remember Danny, Scrub, True Fan and others praising his work, and I personally liked him too. Bosh was a good part of the package in '04, and is a good part of the package in '06. He's no more than that, though, at this point.

Lets put it this way. Lets say some dude enters a bunch of street fights. He looks good in them, and people love him. This guy goes undefeated in a tournament and people love him. His opponents all know this, so they have to resort to drastic measures to beat him. So they just come to fights and beat the dude by using chains, 2x4's, and having their friends jump him during the fights. Does that mean he's weak? No, it just means his opponents have to resort to extremes to win and they know how much of a badass he is. This is almost the same thing with Bosh. Almost all his opponents are going to extremes. None of the casual fans at PWG and non-diehard smarks are thinking any less of him because of his loses, and it shows. Losses are losses, yes, but it all depends on the circumstances in which they take place.

It's an interesting analogy, and there's something to it. It takes a lot to beat Bosh. That's a good quality for a worker's rep, and it's something Bosh didn't have in '04. It's a very good point.

However, that's a rep that midcard and upper midcard guys tend to have. The other two PWG workers that that sums up well are Quicksilver and El Generico. They're both over, and both important parts of the product... but it'd be a mistake to give either one the belt anytime soon, because they're just not presented as being as successful as Steen, Dragon, AJ, and the like.

Bosh's BOLA push, at the time, felt like it was designed to do more than to get him to the "takes a lot to beat him" level. I mean, shit, he beat Quick and Generico themselves, that weekend, in addition to two big names. He's got sort of a tough veteran position on cards now, and there's value in that, but ideally the winner of a big high-profile tournament would be doing better than that.

There are many ways this could of gone. Dragon could of thrown him into the ring to try and get the easy win but end up getting school boyed by Joey and get the lose. Maybe there was some mis-communication in the ring and nobody knew what was supposed to go down. You can come up with whatever theory you have, but chances are that it's way off.

We'll just have to disagree on this. I will say that if Dragon wasn't throwing Bosh in to take the job, then I'm not sure what he was thinking. Everyone in the area seemed pretty freaked out that he was messing with Bosh.

Bosh can still look like a threat. It hasn't been a year since BOLA, so there is still plenty of time for things to play out. There are several multi-shot weekends coming up, so things can change big time for Bosh in the coming months, hence all my "still to early to tell" arguments. And who knows why AJ couldn't of taken a pin. Maybe TNA didn't want him to take it. Again, you just can't tell.

Bosh can certainly be built back up, with a couple months of wins. My point isn't that he could never, ever be a top-card guy now. My point is that all of his BOLA momentum is pretty much gone, and that he'd *need* to be built back up to the top now. He's jobbed too much since BOLA for the aura of that event to get him to the top.

Just because Bosh got pinned doesn't mean Steen didn't get the rub in this. It just means that it takes two chair shots for Joey to pin Bosh in that match.

You're right -- it took a lot to put Bosh down. They've done a good job of presenting that strength of his, if nothing else.

The shows aren't even out yet, so you and I can't be talking on this issue here as we don't know all the circumstances of his loses.

I see what you mean. Still, I don't think the European results are totally irrelevant. He could've come back as the conquering hero, bragging about beating Steen, almost beating the tag champs, whatever. He came back with two losses. I don't think that the So-Cal fans were less into him because of it, but they could've gotten *more* into him again if they knew he'd been succeeding.

Fourth straight pinfall, yes, but to the SoCal crowd it was his first clean pin. While it was technicly his fourth straight time not being able to get things done, it also means that it took so much to beat him with the Turnbuckle Brainbuster.

Took a lot to put him down, yeah. And I see what you mean -- first time he'd been cleanly pinned in So-Cal in a while. Still, since BOLA, the only guy he's pinned is Scott Lost. I think that was starting to be a factor in his heat by 3/4.

Again, no telling what was meant to happen. You really can't count this at all.

There's an asterisk by it, sure, but let's remember the booking of the weekend: Joey was facing Necro the next night, and Bosh was scheduled to face the Briscoes with Scott. Maybe Bosh wasn't supposed to eat the pin (though I'm pretty sure he was), but there's no question that it was going to be another unsuccessful title challenge for him.

If he's a midcarder, why are people going through so much just to beat him? He's not being treated like a midcarder by his opponents, he's being treated like a thread in my mind.

Maybe we can agree on the phrase "upper midcarder"? I agree that he's presented more strongly than guys like Excalibur and Ronin and even T.J., but he simply loses more than the Dragon/Davey/A.J./Steen top tier. I'd say he's on par with Quick, Generico and maybe Sabin. It takes a lot to beat him, but pushed guys can generally manage it.

Plus the main event at ASW 3 happend four hours after the opening bell, of course he wasn't going to get a huge pop. Almost everyone was tired. Even if Jesus Christ came out with Hulk Hogan wrapped up in barbwire being dragged across the floor and then John Lennon making a run in only to get struck with lightning by Jesus it wouldn't get a giant pop.

PWG, MAKE IT HAPPEN! :)

Snipping the walk-through of the title shots. You make good points about the specifics of each match, but the problem isn't the ending of any one match -- the problem is the combination of all of them. If fans root for a guy to win a belt, and he continually fails, they're going to get less excited about him.

Swerve gimmick bro, always watch for it. Everyone was obviously in a panic and were trying to scramble things up. Maybe Dragon felt Bosh was going to get back up and recover and was going to pin him and win the belt? Maybe Joey was supposed to pin Dragon, but in his mind he didn't want to hurt one of the champions and went with Bosh? Maybe they're going to use Bosh's unlucky streak and use that in the storylines coming up?

Again, we're not gonna agree on this. What I saw was Dragon disregarding what everyone was telling him and throwing a severely injured worker back into the ring. I don't think he'd do that just for the hell of it, and I for damn sure don't think that Bosh was supposed to win that night. Seemed to me like they risked Bosh's health for the sake of the plan: that Bosh eats the pin. (You're right, though, that they could use that result going forward in an "unlucky streak" storyline.)

Not like shit; that's overstating it. But Bosh has been made to look like a midcarder.


You're implying it. The majority of your posts keep making things out to seem like Bosh is looking horrible and looking bad. You've also said that he's looked sloppy and said he's always getting injured. Your posts make it seem like it, even if you don't really mean the words you say.

I said, in the "Ten Best Workers" thread, that Bosh has been a little sloppy lately and seems to get injured more often than some people. That wasn't me saying he sucks -- it was me explaining why he didn't quite make my top ten. I love Bosh, and I think he's a helluva worker. I do think he's been sloppy, as both his over-the-ropes-to-the-floor headscissors and lariat/backbreaker combos have been hit-or-miss lately. But I've never said that Bosh looks like shit in the ring.

What I've said is that the booking is making Bosh look bad. And maybe I was wrong to say "bad" -- maybe that's overstating it. But he came out of BOLA with a shitload of momentum and a lot of talk about how he was the next PWG champ. Since then, he's lost a lot and failed to win the title on a number of occasions, and he's only pinned one guy. He looks tough, sure, but overall I don't think that's good booking of a babyface.

The DVDs aren't even out yet, so we don't know if Joey has cut any promos about him since then. Don't jump to conclusions so quickly. And he's also pinned him twice by CHEATING, how many times do I have to repeat that point?

Not talking about DVD promos -- I'm talking about live promos. Joey mentioned Bosh as a threat pretty often a couple months ago; he no longer does.

And losing by cheating is much more damaging to a babyface than winning. How many times do I have to repeat THAT point?

I certainly don't think that TPI was hurt by Styles' win in '04, as that's easily its most high-profile year ever. You may be right about the Super 8, though. Certainly it wouldn't be good to have big names win every tourney all the time.


My point wasn't that it ruined TPI, just left a bitter taste in people's mouths and ruined the meaning of what TPI has meant for years.

Well, you may be right about that. In a sense, we're talking about two different things here. Bookers have to worry about 1) pleasing loyal fans and 2) attracting new fans. AJ winning TPI may have pissed off the former group, but I think it was probably a draw for the latter group.

Well, advancing big names is no big deal, just them winning the whole tournaments. Things would mean more if local talent started to get upsets, and it would establish them and in the future would make future wrestlers in PWG look better once AJ and Daniels aren't available.

Agreed, absolutely agreed. It's just a balance thing. Elevating a local means more if it doesn't happen every single year. If, say, Danielson won it next year, and then a young guy like Koslov or Ronin won it the year after, that'd mean big things for that local guy. Because he won something that Bryan Danielson has won. That's a lot of the draw of the Super 8, after all -- that the winner joins the ranks of people like Bryan Danielson, Paul London and Christopher Daniels.

It's not that he's aggressive putting over regulars, it's just that his tournaments aren't that good.

Ha, well, shit, you got me there. I'd agree, I haven't really seen a great Super Indy yet.

Agreed. Again, I thought Bosh was the right choice last year. But his struggles since have slightly tarnished BOLA's reputation. It's not the tourney that made Chris Bosh; it's the tourney that Chris Bosh did oddly well in, before going back to struggling in singles matches.


Again, nobody thinks BOLA's reputation has been ruined by the current booking. Chances are, nobody gives a shit about it. It's still been less than a year since it happend and we can't just be talking about the effects of Bosh's current run is having on it.

"Slightly tarnished" /= "ruined". I don't think it's a big deal, but it's something for the PWG brass to keep an eye on in the future.

Yeah, I agree with this. I think there's no doubt that BOLA is gonna be huge no matter what. But I think some thoughtful use of stars -- maybe a win by a Danielson or a Cabana every three or four years -- would only make it even bigger.


Cabana and Styles(who's a bigger name than Danielson) couldn't help IWC's tournament, so there's nothing in your argument that can help you support your statement. Plus Cabana and Danielson aren't really PWG regulars, so that wouldn't do much to help them if they got booked like shit elsewhere when you think about it.

The only thing that I'd use to support my statement is my sense that the TPIs have been bigger deals and sold more DVDs since they started really pushing bigger names. I'll admit, I have no rock-solid data to prove that, but I get the sense, at DVDVR and elsewhere, that people started talking about those tourneys more when they became showdowns of big indy names, more than constant elevations of IWA-MS regulars.

Replace Danielson and Cabana with Hero and Sabin, if you want more regular PWG "names" in there.

I think it's *not* as anticipated as the TPI or the Super 8 by the InterNerds, partially for that very reason. (Partially because a lot of the CZW workers simply don't put on great matches.)


I think it is. People buzzed about it when Dragon and B-Boy had their match and the Jody/Storm match. BOTB is still one of the most looked forward too tournaments in the US, moreso than the CHIKARA TWGP, ROH's Trio's, IWC's Super Indy, and hell at this point ECWA's Super 8.

Seems to me that the TWGP is more looked forward to, but we're splitting hairs here. I never see much BOTB hype at the places I go (DVDVR, HWL, Smarkschoice), but I believe you that they're big deals on other boards.

I loved the early Sweet Science 16's. But there's been much more of a Web buzz over TPI since '04, and the star-studded nature of that one is a big reason why


But it also got the most web heat over the results of it. Plus IWA-MS was at their peak period at the time. People then looked at past TPI's and loved them because of the nature in which they've been booked.
[/quote]
I'd argue that bookers would happily accept more web heat if it also meant they'd sell more DVDs. But again, I can't *prove* that they've sold more since '04 -- it's just my sense.

I'm guessing we've reached about the end of this discussion, Andy, though I'm down to continue it. Thanks for making some good points and keeping it civil.
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Postby onlxn » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:41 pm

Akeem framed the situation very well -- far better than me.

And yeah, I also forgot that A.J. was X-Division champ then, so I guess they had to job Bosh. My general point still stands, but complaint withdrawn on that one.
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Postby ToddMartin » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:38 pm

Christopher Daniels was pinned twice in PWG while X division champion, just months before the Styles-Bosh-Steen match. He was pinned in the second night of Battle of Los Angeles by Bryan Danielson, and perhaps of even more relevance, he was pinned in a 3 way for the PWG title on night 2 of the second anniversary show. So unless I'm missing something, I really don't think the X division title had anything to do with the finish to that match.

I'm in the unpopular position of never understanding why Bosh won BOLA in the first place, and thinking the honor should have gone to someone else. I was hoping at the time they would pick Richards and use that to catapult him into stardom, but they found a way to do that anyway so I can't complain on that count. I also thought it would have been appropriate for Super Dragon to win the first year, since he essentially is the king of Los Angeles indy wrestling and winning it the first year would build prestige for the title that would help elevate future champions.
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Postby Rish To The Rosh » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:19 pm

I think Bosh was the perfect person to win BOLA, he was at the right level and the right stage to get the honour.

Dragon & Steen were feuding and already top teir talent, they didn't need it, same for Kazarian. Sky & Lost were going to feud, and it wouldn't have added anything to that. Quicksilver and El Generico weren't at a high enough level to win it, and since then have focused on tag work. Richards found a more original and creative way to gain momentum and climb up the ladder, worked out better for him in the end overall. Ryan may have been the second choice, but they did get the job done another way with him, and this whole thing was meant to build towards those 2, and it wouldn't have worked if it was done the other way round. All the fly ins wouldn't have really added much prestigue to the first win anyway, plus most of them are only part-time so it would have been a waste.
Puma > TJ Perkins!
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Postby KickToKill » Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:29 pm

Those were the longest posts I've ever read
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Postby SoCalAndy » Mon May 01, 2006 12:28 pm

Did people not like Bosh in '04? I certainly did; I seem to remember people liking him pretty well at SCU and DVDVR. He didn't get pops because he was a heel, but he was an effective midcarder, which is more or less what he is now.


He was getting hyped on SCU, but on the boards I remember most crowd reactions ranging from "That dude needs to do situps" and "Somebody shut that white fag up!" whenever he would be standing on ring aprons in tag matches. People liked Bosh as he grew in PWG, but it didn't come about until he started to become a focus in the main event scene.

I'm saying that it's no longer one of the biggest reactions on PWG shows, or even close to it, really.


You keep trying to sell me on this, but I'm honestly not buying. I'm willing to bet money that if he cut a promo or had a match at the begining at the next shows he'd get the biggest pop of the night(this ties into my main event heat theories).

I feel like A.J. and Steen always get pretty killer reactions in main events, no matter how long or draining the shows are.


I think Bosh gets bigger reactions than AJ. The pop he got at his last PWG match wasn't as big as Bosh's.

Again, that's simply not the reaction I remember Bosh getting in '04. I remember Danny, Scrub, True Fan and others praising his work, and I personally liked him too. Bosh was a good part of the package in '04, and is a good part of the package in '06. He's no more than that, though, at this point.


The people you mentioned were Rev Pro and SoCal die-hards who praised great wrestling. A lot of other people didn't really praise Bosh, and most people seemed to be praising people like Puma and Scott Lost. Right now, he's a great part of PWG and with a title win, I could imagine him being able to carry PWG(I'll touch on this below).

They're both over, and both important parts of the product...


I get your point, but this part overshadows it. Generico is refered to as PWG's MVP by almost everyone(even Super Dragon in that one interview) and gets praise from almost everyone, and Quick is part of one of the most over acts in PWG(not counting Davey and Dragon). I have to say that they're really important parts in PWG, and are the backbone of shows.

Bosh's BOLA push, at the time, felt like it was designed to do more than to get him to the "takes a lot to beat him" level. I mean, shit, he beat Quick and Generico themselves, that weekend, in addition to two big names. He's got sort of a tough veteran position on cards now, and there's value in that, but ideally the winner of a big high-profile tournament would be doing better than that.


His push could of meant plenty of things, and right now they're playing out. There are puzzle peices to look for, and many things PWG might be going for, and it's still too soon to draw conclusions as to what was meant to come from that.

He came back with two losses. I don't think that the So-Cal fans were less into him because of it, but they could've gotten *more* into him again if they knew he'd been succeeding.


The bold part indicates to me that the results of those shows still wouldn't matter to the SoCal fans until they saw the DVDs.

There's an asterisk by it, sure, but let's remember the booking of the weekend: Joey was facing Necro the next night, and Bosh was scheduled to face the Briscoes with Scott. Maybe Bosh wasn't supposed to eat the pin (though I'm pretty sure he was), but there's no question that it was going to be another unsuccessful title challenge for him.


The press release for the shows strongly indicated that no matter who won the title match on Night 1, they would still have to be in their regular matches, and that Joey would still have to face his mystery guy.and if he retained it would be on the line. Again, no telling on what could of really happend.

And another interesting note from that press release: This past weekend at "Beyond The Thunderdome," Chris Bosh's anger could be held back no longer, when he directed an emotional diatribe at both Dragon and Joey. Unfortunately, as Scott Lost was quick to point out, Bosh seemed more concerned with Dragon and Joey than his match that was about to start. This was an astute observation, since Bosh's lack of focus ended up costing Arrogance their shot at the tag titles.

Another item directly from PWG Silverback that you seemed to have forgotten. So there's a good reason as to why Bosh's loss can't really ruin him.

Maybe we can agree on the phrase "upper midcarder"? I agree that he's presented more strongly than guys like Excalibur and Ronin and even T.J., but he simply loses more than the Dragon/Davey/A.J./Steen top tier. I'd say he's on par with Quick, Generico and maybe Sabin. It takes a lot to beat him, but pushed guys can generally manage it.


I don't believe in the term "upper midcarder" at all. And I don't see how you could put Chris Sabin on the level of Generico and Quicksilver, as they're complete opposites when it comes to where they rank on the importance pole of PWG and have different roles.

If fans root for a guy to win a belt, and he continually fails, they're going to get less excited about him.


Now we're getting into what I would like to name "Clippers/Sox Syndrome". Now, for the longest time fans of the LA Clippers, Boston Red Sox, and Chicago White Sox fans have all been waiting for years to see their teams succeed and win playoff games and championships. When the Red Sox and White Sox won the World Series their fans went insane, same could happen with Chris Bosh. When he finally wins the belt, fans would be shocked and they'd go batshit nuts. It's good build by PWG in my mind IF they're going with that method.

I said, in the "Ten Best Workers" thread, that Bosh has been a little sloppy lately and seems to get injured more often than some people. That wasn't me saying he sucks -- it was me explaining why he didn't quite make my top ten.

But I've never said that Bosh looks like shit in the ring.


Again, a lot of your posts IMPLY that you think he sucks and looks like shit.

Not talking about DVD promos -- I'm talking about live promos. Joey mentioned Bosh as a threat pretty often a couple months ago; he no longer does.


Well, Joey isn't wrestling Bosh that much now, is he?

And losing by cheating is much more damaging to a babyface than winning. How many times do I have to repeat THAT point?


That makes zero sense. It doesn't hurt the face whatsoever. It proves that the heel has no confidence in his skills or just doesn't want to try his best. The entire concept of cheating in wrestling is meant to give the illusion that nobody knows if the babyface can win. All of Bosh's losses by cheating is only making his opponents look worse and him looking better. Bosh can still believably win a match over Joey cleanly, as nothing has been established about Bosh not being able to beat him.

If, say, Danielson won it next year, and then a young guy like Koslov or Ronin won it the year after, that'd mean big things for that local guy. Because he won something that Bryan Danielson has won.


No, then all that would mean is Danielson won the tournament one year. Koslov or Ronin or even Topgun could win BOLA a year after, but they could still probably not have wrestled any accomplished wrestlers while doing so. It would mean more for the already big named superstar to lose to a local guy. Most sports teams in major sporting leagues could win titles, but they could end up sucking in the long run. Danielson could win BOLA this year, but after that he ends up starting to suck, people would think less of people who win the same tournament he won. Imagine if Amazing Red won BOLA when he was at his peak in 2002/2003, and then a year later he starts to suck in the eyes of fans and some guy like Koslov won the thing. What are they going to associate the tournament with? It would be better if local guys beat bigger people while they're still hot, as it would look impressive more than winning something a guy who was once good won.

That's a lot of the draw of the Super 8, after all -- that the winner joins the ranks of people like Bryan Danielson, Paul London and Christopher Daniels.


Yeah, but at the same time those dudes wheren't big names when they won it. Bret Hart won the King Of The Ring, and Owen Hart too, and then King Mabel won it. His name is going to forever be mentioned along the lines of those men. Not saying that PWG would put over a guy like King Mabel, but winning a tournament wont boost your career just because *random big named worker* won it before.

The only thing that I'd use to support my statement is my sense that the TPIs have been bigger deals and sold more DVDs since they started really pushing bigger names.


Chances are 2005's TPI might of sold more, and 2004 sold more than 2003, and 2002 sold more than 2001. It's not really a thing about pushing big names, because you can't tell why people bought them. It can be atributed more to people learning about it and wanting to see something different.

I'll admit, I have no rock-solid data to prove that, but I get the sense, at DVDVR and elsewhere, that people started talking about those tourneys more when they became showdowns of big indy names, more than constant elevations of IWA-MS regulars.


Well, you did mention posting on three sites, with only one of them being a bigger site on the IWC. Plus on DVDR people seemed way more into Chris Hero's heel turn than they did AJ Styles winning the title.

Seems to me that the TWGP is more looked forward to, but we're splitting hairs here. I never see much BOTB hype at the places I go (DVDVR, HWL, Smarkschoice), but I believe you that they're big deals on other boards.


Expand your herizons, Smarks Choice and Happy Wrestling Land aren't that big of names for the wrestling internet scene. Plus BOTB has raised the stock of B-Boy and Super Dragon in the US Indy Scene(and even made B-Boy a star) and helped Jody Fleisch and Jonny Storm become internationally known.

Is Bosh able to have consistently great matches as a singles wrestler the same way the other people in the top tier are capable of? I don't believe so.


Bosh is capable to have great matches as a singles worker. In RevPro, he did just that with lesser workers and a smaller fanbase. He was having consistently great matches. Although the period he was champion was the worst in Rev Pro's history, he can hardly be blamed for it for a number of reasons:

-Lack of hype from the promoters.
-Lack of video releases.
-Lack of storyline progress and lack of direction

He was still able to do good things, and was able to make the best out of a terrible situtation. If PWG did give him the title, and booked him strongly as a champion and was given a sense of direction, Bosh could no doubt be seen on the level of the top tier wrestlers in the promotion. Hell, he could even surpass them if he's given a lot of mic time. Bosh could be PWG's answer to Austin in the Attitude Era, seeing as Austin was also never really seen as the guy who could carry a company on his own.
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Postby onlxn » Mon May 01, 2006 1:17 pm

Well, Andy, we're just not gonna agree with the amount of heat Bosh has been getting, and the reasons why or why not. And frankly, I'm hoping he gets a huge pop on Saturday, as I'd like to see him become a bigger player again.

I do think he's capable of carrying a promotion, as he had that great, forgotten run as Rev Pro's heavyweight champ (and I agree with you that the promotion's struggles during that time had nothing to do with him). But I think for him to do a really good job of it, to have the heat he'd need, he'd have to be re-pushed with some wins for a couple months. You may not entirely agree, but we've rambled enough about that point.

While you're of course right that we can't know what will happen, I'm curious as to what you *think* might happen with the title. Do you think B-Boy will win on Saturday? And if so, do you see Bosh chasing him for the belt?
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Postby It's A Bomb » Mon May 01, 2006 10:27 pm

Bomb, didn't you call me out in that "low priority" thread, only to disappear when it was clear that you had nothing to contribute except pissiness?


Sorry for having a life and not responding to your dumb points. :( Next time I have time off I'll be sure to start a Debate Of Honor with you.
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Postby onlxn » Tue May 02, 2006 1:37 am

It's A Bomb wrote:Sorry for having a life and not responding to your dumb points. :(

A life that apparently involves your friend showing you my DVDVR posts and you getting all riled up about them. Have fun being cooler than me, tough guy! :D
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Postby urmomsurdad » Wed May 03, 2006 12:59 am

KickToKill wrote:Those were the longest posts I've ever read


he's right... you marks are outta control.

and i hate bosh.
thanks
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